christianity or evolution?

[rangerhopefull_1162]

which one is true

[fade2black_81]

Neither is true.

[Zendris]

Fade 2 Black, that is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Evolution takes place on a regular basis, the Darwin theory is correct, regardless of whether or not Adam and Eve were the first humans. I will probably come back and burn you some more, but I have class now, so see you in a few.

[Americanguy21787]

Actually this guy has a point as much as i hate to admit it people are evolving everyday being born without their liver and differnt stuff like that humanity is changing however i do not belive that we came from monkeys is DO belive very much so in christianity i belive that their is a greater power that created the world in 7 days

[rangerhopefull_1162]

how is being born w/out your liver evolution. lol *confused* woodnt that be a deformity

[Americanguy21787]

No it wouldnt be a deformity becasue we dont use our liver its just their i promise you look it up if you dont belive me iam serious their has been studies that have shown people being born without their liver.

[rangerhopefull_1162]

there have been studys of people being born with "tails". but that is a mutation

[rangerhopefull_1162]

i dont doubt you in the least

[fade2black_81]

Oh point taken I guess evolution is the way to go.

[rangerhopefull_1162]

no, not at all.

christianity is. its the way i have chosen. ;)

[js_mac]

Americanguy wtf?? People don't need their livers??? Is there something wrong with you? Yes they do. Why do people get liver transplants... for the hell of it?
Yes, people are sometimes born without livers - it is called hepatic agenesis, actually :D . But it is just a random mutation - people are just as likely to be born without a heart or, anything else. Hepatic agenesis is lethal, unless some form of ****ed-up transplant can be performed. This mutation is not called ****ing evolution, however. Evolution would be like a chimp born able to talk, which would give him an advantage over other chimps, he would then pass this on to other chimps through breeding, so the other chimps, who cannot talk, would die out due to inability to compete with the 'new' chimps, and hence the new species of 'chimp' would be one that talks.
I am a christian, but you idiots who say evolution didn't make us how we are are blinkered morons. I believe life was created by a God, but that evolution, under the control of God created us.

[rangerhopefull_1162]

finaly we can agree on sumthin

[ozzi-solja]

we dont need our livers?? You ****wit... im no expert in medicine like js_mac, but as far as i know the liver is the major storage site for Glycogen in the body, thats why we get stitches when we run too hard and ****... what a wanker. Do they teach you anything over in yankee land??

Being born without organs/extra toes/or a ****in tail is an evolutionary process called MUTATION. it happens all the time, but its doesnt mean that one day all humans will not have livers. ever heard of natural selection??? Obviously a kid who was born without a liver recieved weak liver genes, meanning that his parents were lazy alcoholic ****wits.

what sort of a question is 'Christianity or Evolution' anyway... the two hardly even relate. I prefer to think of religion as a mental projection... do dogs believe in God?? We are the only species on this planet that practice religion, and back in the old days, before they wrote the Bible, rellgion was a ****ing good excuse for a fight, thats all.

Still a good reason these days come to think of it

[kurusch]

[QUOTE=ozzi-solja]

Obviously a kid who was born without a liver recieved weak liver genes, meanning that his parents were lazy alcoholic ****wits.

That's just as stupid as saying we don't need livers.

To topic:
I don't see why both can't be correct. Originally, philosphical thought was locked into a religious paradigm. Given the state of human knowledge, a belief in a higher power explained the world perfectly. Then people applied scientific laws of the physical to ideas and because 'god' could not be proven, science declared that god didn't exist (with many exceptions of course). However, with the advent of quantum mechanics, the divergence of science and religion is converging. We now know that thousands of billions of parallel universes may exist, meaning that we live in a broader multiverse. Excepting this theory (remember, evolution is still a theory), means that we have to accept the possibility of a creator. Quantum theory dictates that to have faith in the multiverse theory, we have to give equal credence religious theories.

[capwil]

Religions were created so if someone is/feels alone, they could turn to that religion for relief. Religions are like tax free businesses. The christian church is the wealthiest non-profit organization in the world. I'm suppose to be a christian, but no one would ever know it. I don't attend church - I'd rather work out at the gym. Evolution on the other hand goes together with religion. The 'bible' has been re-written so many times people have lost count. The bible is the main advertising element of christianity. Each religion has it's books to get you reading, listening and then believing. Not to mention the ceremonies.

Just look at the pope. The pope gets into office just like a politician would...the cardinals (heads of state) VOTE! How can you vote for someone to be 'closer' to god than everyone else? It's all a farce and a scam. Soon, the church will be telemarketing!

Evolution takes places over thousands of years. We will not see any human evolution in our lifetime. Unless, we create machines that can think for themselves!

[soulchild]

I believe in Theistic Evolution..... The premise is that everything that is naturally present was created by God. However it just did not pop up, there was a process through which everything happend. For example I believe that God caused the big bang, and guided everything that happend after that with the ultimate goal of creating us humans.

Also, us humans don't evolve anymore because it's no longer survival of the fittest. Those that should die naturally are perserved through medicne and are allowed to reproduce, thus evolutionally speaking we are becoming a weaker race, than we would be if we didn't have such medicnes........ Don't get it twisted tho, I DO NOT condone killing people/ letting people die because they will weaken the race.

[Aravis]

I believe in Theistic Evolution..... The premise is that everything that is naturally present was created by God. However it just did not pop up, there was a process through which everything happend. For example I believe that God caused the big bang, and guided everything that happend after that with the ultimate goal of creating us humans.
You've probably been asked this a thousand times, but if you have you should have an answer: Who created God??

Also, us humans don't evolve anymore because it's no longer survival of the fittest. Those that should die naturally are perserved through medicne and are allowed to reproduce, thus evolutionally speaking we are becoming a weaker race, than we would be if we didn't have such medicnes........ Don't get it twisted tho, I DO NOT condone killing people/ letting people die because they will weaken the race.
Wow, I tried to explain this on another thread, but I just couldn't explain it as well as you! Thx!

However, I don't believe in any kind of religion, only science and evolution.
Someone said that he doesn't believe that we were monkeys before. Nobody says we were, but we do have a common ansestor with monkeys. If you go back in time far enough, we have the same ansestors as crocodiles, even dinosaurs.

I remember when I was a kid and my grandmother told me her view of Adam and Eve, and now I want to share it with you:
Adam and Eve had two sons, Kain and Abel. Kain killed Abel, and was banned from the garden of Eve (I have a feeling something is wrong here, weren't they banned because Adam ate the apple?? Well, this is my grandmom's story). Outside the garden he found a bunch of whores and reproduced with them.
So... What? We're all related? There was a massive ****** going on for a while? Well, I haven't read the Bible, so I don't know, but the bits and pieces I've heard don't make me want to read or believe in that book.

[soulchild]

You've probably been asked this a thousand times, but if you have you should have an answer: Who created God??


Wow, I tried to explain this on another thread, but I just couldn't explain it as well as you! Thx!

However, I don't believe in any kind of religion, only science and evolution.
Someone said that he doesn't believe that we were monkeys before. Nobody says we were, but we do have a common ansestor with monkeys. If you go back in time far enough, we have the same ansestors as crocodiles, even dinosaurs.

I remember when I was a kid and my grandmother told me her view of Adam and Eve, and now I want to share it with you:
Adam and Eve had two sons, Kain and Abel. Kain killed Abel, and was banned from the garden of Eve (I have a feeling something is wrong here, weren't they banned because Adam ate the apple?? Well, this is my grandmom's story). Outside the garden he found a bunch of whores and reproduced with them.
So... What? We're all related? There was a massive ****** going on for a while? Well, I haven't read the Bible, so I don't know, but the bits and pieces I've heard don't make me want to read or believe in that book.


God wasn't created. He just is. Nobody can explain how God got here because to do that one would have to be able to understand God which is impossable. Even if some1 claims to understand God they are likely wrong, there is a Taoist saying "The Tao (Dao) that can be defined is not the ture Tao (Dao). Just know that the scope of God is so large that the human mind cannot comprehend it.

About your comment about the origins of man, the way you explained it to me is how man was spread throughout the world. So yes I guess there was ****** goin on for awhile, but I do not think that it was as dangerous as it is now because humans were not as evolved as we are now. By evolved I do not mean changed in a serious way like growing tales, but the brain and it's functions have changed. During that time the whole survival of the fittest thing was still applicable because we didn't have devices to keep the "weaker" people alive.

[Aravis]

God wasn't created. He just is. Nobody can explain how God got here because to do that one would have to be able to understand God which is impossable. Even if some1 claims to understand God they are likely wrong, there is a Taoist saying "The Tao (Dao) that can be defined is not the ture Tao (Dao). Just know that the scope of God is so large that the human mind cannot comprehend it.

About your comment about the origins of man, the way you explained it to me is how man was spread throughout the world. So yes I guess there was ****** goin on for awhile, but I do not think that it was as dangerous as it is now because humans were not as evolved as we are now. By evolved I do not mean changed in a serious way like growing tales, but the brain and it's functions have changed. During that time the whole survival of the fittest thing was still applicable because we didn't have devices to keep the "weaker" people alive.
"God wasn't created." That's the part I have a problem with... I guess he's an axiom for believers, but for me an axiom is something intuitive, and God isn't that. I mean, who can argue with a guy who says that 1=1?? There's nothing in that statement that anyone disagrees with, but saying "God is God" is not the same in my opinion.

I never said that was "the origins of man", I said it was a story. Anyway, you're allowed to believe in what you want, that's fine with me. I'm just a bit more sceptic than you. When someone dies it would be nice to believe that he goes to a better place than this, so sometimes I envy believers, but I can't force myself to believe in something I don't believe in!
And that's another thing; If God actually exsisted, and if you had to believe in him to go to heaven when you die, why doesn't he give everyone a chance to "find" him? I tried when I was younger, but there was nothing anywhere in the world or in my mind to indicate there is a God. So how could i believe in him?? If he created me then why did he make me such a sceptic that I only believe in what I see and what can be proven?? You tell me that if you can!

[js_mac]

"God wasn't created." That's the part I have a problem with... I guess he's an axiom for believers, but for me an axiom is something intuitive, and God isn't that. I mean, who can argue with a guy who says that 1=1?? There's nothing in that statement that anyone disagrees with, but saying "God is God" is not the same in my opinion.

I never said that was "the origins of man", I said it was a story. Anyway, you're allowed to believe in what you want, that's fine with me. I'm just a bit more sceptic than you. When someone dies it would be nice to believe that he goes to a better place than this, so sometimes I envy believers, but I can't force myself to believe in something I don't believe in!
And that's another thing; If God actually exsisted, and if you had to believe in him to go to heaven when you die, why doesn't he give everyone a chance to "find" him? I tried when I was younger, but there was nothing anywhere in the world or in my mind to indicate there is a God. So how could i believe in him?? If he created me then why did he make me such a sceptic that I only believe in what I see and what can be proven?? You tell me that if you can!

He made you a sceptic because he gave humans the choice to go to heaven or hell, basically. Before jesus' time, god was meant to be apparent in everyday life, but, now, since jesus, we can be forgiven for bad deeds, so god is less of a factor. ie, like i said, we can choose whether to believe or not.
I know it's hard to believe (i find if hard to believe) but humans are too stupid to understand how he works. There's a few examples of inconsistencies in the universe that prove there is a god that controls all. I can only think of a few:
1. Certain parts of life are too complicated for evolution, alone, to have created, e.g. the 3 bones in our ears.
2. When liquids solidify they become denser (ie if you froze liquid oxygen, the solid oxygen would sink in the liquid oxygen). The only liquid that this doesn't happen to is water. Water's density strangely peaks at 4celsius, and is denser than ice, meaning that when lakes freeze in winter etc, u get a puddle of water underneath the ice. This was absolutely essential for life to flourish.
3. The phsyical constants of the universe are all so precisely perfect, that if they were to alter even slightly, the whole universe would collapse and die. eg, gravity happens to have a predefined strength, which, if it was a fraction off this amount, the universe couldn't exist.

[Aravis]

He made you a sceptic because he gave humans the choice to go to heaven or hell, basically. Before jesus' time, god was meant to be apparent in everyday life, but, now, since jesus, we can be forgiven for bad deeds, so god is less of a factor. ie, like i said, we can choose whether to believe or not.
What I'm saying is that he didn't give me the chance to go to heaven, if he exists, he sentanced me to hell before I was born, now is that the kind of God you really believe in??
I don't think it's good for anyone to believe in something when they aren't allowed to ask questions. Well, of course you can ask questions, but what good are they when they are never answered??
I know it's hard to believe (i find if hard to believe) but humans are too stupid to understand how he works. There's a few examples of inconsistencies in the universe that prove there is a god that controls all. I can only think of a few:
1. Certain parts of life are too complicated for evolution, alone, to have created, e.g. the 3 bones in our ears.
2. When liquids solidify they become denser (ie if you froze liquid oxygen, the solid oxygen would sink in the liquid oxygen). The only liquid that this doesn't happen to is water. Water's density strangely peaks at 4celsius, and is denser than ice, meaning that when lakes freeze in winter etc, u get a puddle of water underneath the ice. This was absolutely essential for life to flourish.
3. The phsyical constants of the universe are all so precisely perfect, that if they were to alter even slightly, the whole universe would collapse and die. eg, gravity happens to have a predefined strength, which, if it was a fraction off this amount, the universe couldn't exist.
How is your example in 1. an inconsistency? If you wanted to prove a point, you should have taken the brain, the cerebral cortex and the ability to think as an example, it would have been much more convincing!
And how is 3. an inconsistency at all? And most of those universal physical constants apply only to Earth, not the whole universe.

And then I want to start this weekend with a laugh, somehow I think this belongs on this thread:
Pope John Paul II gets to heaven.

St. Peter says, "Frankly, you're lucky to be here."
Pope John Paul II says, "Why? What did I do wrong on earth?"
St. Peter says, "God was very angry with your stance on women becoming priests."
Pope John Paul says, "He's mad about THAT?"

St. Peter says, "She's furious!"

[js_mac]

What I'm saying is that he didn't give me the chance to go to heaven, if he exists, he sentanced me to hell before I was born, now is that the kind of God you really believe in??
I don't think it's good for anyone to believe in something when they aren't allowed to ask questions. Well, of course you can ask questions, but what good are they when they are never answered??

In the bible, heaven is just this world, but where god is ever-present, making everything good and perfect; whilst hell is this world but where god isn't present, and evil thrives. This world is, thus, an in-between. So, this means that, here, there is evil and there is good. I'm not saying you're evil, but the fact that you don't believe is supposed to be because of this evil. God doesn't intervene in this world anymore - those who overcome the "evil" are rewarded with heaven.

How is your example in 1. an inconsistency? If you wanted to prove a point, you should have taken the brain, the cerebral cortex and the ability to think as an example, it would have been much more convincing!
And how is 3. an inconsistency at all? And most of those universal physical constants apply only to Earth, not the whole universe.


It is inconsistent with our views that evolution created all - yeah, the brain etc is an example, but most people don't know the full workings of it all, so can't appreciate it, but most know about the 3 ear bones. Don't know what your point was there.
Yeah, 3 isn't an inconsistency, but i can't be ****ed changing my wording - you still know what i'm getting at. No, the constant of gravity is universal, as are all the laws of phsyics. It is plain stupid to think that by leaving our atmosphere the entire workings of the universe change. The universe is absolutely perfectly built for life - albert einstein said the more he studied it, the more he believed that there was a god.

[marniej214]

I would like to share my views and beliefs a little. I have not always been a Christian, but became one while in Jr. High. I am now a senior in college and have been able to have time to mature and grow in my faith. I honestly now don't know how people can not live without God or not believe that He does exist. This world, I do believe is corrupt and that is why we need to keep our focus on God and His will. He will lead us to paradise someday with Him if we so choose to follow and obey Him. There is a great reward for His children who follow Him and serve Him. Our Lord went through the ultimate sacrifice for us, for the chance to be saved. Without Jesus dying on the cross, there would be no chance for every person on the face of this earth to be with God for eternity, which is the best place anyone could ever be. I am definitely not saying that if you are a Christian, that your life is just perfect, because God puts us through trials to strengthen our faith in Him and make us mature and grow. I have been through some pretty difficult times in my life, but no matter how hard they have been I managed to keep my eyes on Him and I learned SO MUCH!! As far as the universe issue, honestly, even for an atheist to look at something like this really has to make them think. How could a universe be so perfect for a human? How could a human be made without a God? The human body is so intricate and ensembled so perfectly, how would it just come together without a creator? Dirt or particles didn't fly together to make a beathing, living life form. It makes no sense to me. The earth was not thrown together with temperatures that humans are able to endure and even to think of the atmosphere and the oxygen that we breath. Earth was created specifically for God's children to live. That is why other planets do not have humans or a beautiful planet with things such as trees, rivers and mountains. Humans are not God, that is why we cannot grasp how big and everything that He is. We aren't supposed to... Humans cannot grasp the concept of eternity. It boggles my mind how great, big and loving our God really is. I have taken numerous science classes in my life and still yet, evolution cannot be proved, how could they? The evidence they thought that they had was faulty. Well, if people choose not to believe, then judgment day or the day they die must be a scary thought and they will see the truth someday when it is too late. I am looking forward to the time the Lord comes again or the day He takes me to be with Him. No one is perfect and He knows that...it's all whether or not we ask for forgiveness. He just loves us too much and it must be saddening to Him to see the people He created with love, reject Him. As to the comment on how all things are not answered, read the good book, everything is in there. :D However, there are things that will be revealed in His time, they are not for us to know yet. :)

[andoman_42]

Earth was created specifically for God's children to live. That is why other planets do not have humans or a beautiful planet with things such as trees, rivers and mountains.

Right....there you make quite an assumption......Earth is SO FAR the only habitable planet we know about because we do not yet possess advanced enough technology to find other simlar planets. So far only Jupiter like planets have been found orbiting other stars but when we get better equipment I think we will find other habitable planets. In a universe with a billion galaxies with hundreds of billions of stars each(understatement of the year...I know :-) ), do you really thing Earth is the only place where life would develop? Ok, if you believe in God then the answer would be yes......but I don´t think so......I think we are just one little planet in a very big universe......

[soulchild]

He made you a sceptic because he gave humans the choice to go to heaven or hell, basically. Before jesus' time, god was meant to be apparent in everyday life, but, now, since jesus, we can be forgiven for bad deeds, so god is less of a factor. ie, like i said, we can choose whether to believe or not.
I know it's hard to believe (i find if hard to believe) but humans are too stupid to understand how he works. There's a few examples of inconsistencies in the universe that prove there is a god that controls all. I can only think of a few:
1. Certain parts of life are too complicated for evolution, alone, to have created, e.g. the 3 bones in our ears.
2. When liquids solidify they become denser (ie if you froze liquid oxygen, the solid oxygen would sink in the liquid oxygen). The only liquid that this doesn't happen to is water. Water's density strangely peaks at 4celsius, and is denser than ice, meaning that when lakes freeze in winter etc, u get a puddle of water underneath the ice. This was absolutely essential for life to flourish.
3. The phsyical constants of the universe are all so precisely perfect, that if they were to alter even slightly, the whole universe would collapse and die. eg, gravity happens to have a predefined strength, which, if it was a fraction off this amount, the universe couldn't exist.


I actuly agree with jsmac :eek: theese truly are the end times........... LOL

Think about it tho God is giving you a chance to find him. Everytime you think about God or where you came from, your searching for God. Every conversation about God you have your searching for God. Theese are all oportuinites for finding God. Some people have those enlightening experiences that lead them to God. However I don't think you can look for one and get one...... It just happens.

[Aravis]

I have not always been a Christian, but became one while in Jr. High.Good for you, it seems life is easier for believers. You have someone to blame for everything bad that happens; "God is testing me!" We atheist don't have that luxury.
This world, I do believe is corrupt and that is why we need to keep our focus on God and His will.You do just that! If believing in God keeps you from doing stupid things, then that is a good thing. I keep myself from doing stupid things, I hold myself accountable for my actions, and I have never liked letting people down or hurting them in any way. However if I do let someone down or hurt them, I ask them for forgiveness, not God.
Our Lord went through the ultimate sacrifice for us, for the chance to be saved. Without Jesus dying on the cross, there would be no chance for every person on the face of this earth to be with God for eternity, which is the best place anyone could ever be.How can you be so sure that it wasn't the jews who were right? How can you be so sure Jesus was who he said he was, you didn't see him walk on water or turn water into wine, that could just be stories that have grown out of proportion.
As far as the universe issue, honestly, even for an atheist to look at something like this really has to make them think. How could a universe be so perfect for a human? How could a human be made without a God? The human body is so intricate and ensembled so perfectly, how would it just come together without a creator? Dirt or particles didn't fly together to make a beathing, living life form. It makes no sense to me. The earth was not thrown together with temperatures that humans are able to endure and even to think of the atmosphere and the oxygen that we breath. Earth was created specifically for God's children to live. That is why other planets do not have humans or a beautiful planet with things such as trees, rivers and mountains.Humans have evolved! No, dirt o particles didn't just fly together. When Earth was a lot younger than it is today and there was no land anywhere to be found, temperatures were very different from today and there were nasty storms and clouds covering Earth, there were lightning everywhere and somewhere there were the right kinds of aminoacids and proteins to make the very first living thing in this world, a one cell thing, when lightning struck. Man has actually been able to create conditions really close to the conditions back then, and have been able to make one celled things similar to these, the difference is that for some reason these cells created a long time ago started multiplying. Man made cells haven't done this (yet!) And so evolution started. It was a fluke, followed by millions after billions of flukes, that created man, that created you and me.
Earth wasn't created for man, there were the right conditions on Earth for man to evolv.
I have taken numerous science classes in my life and still yet, evolution cannot be proved, how could they?And God can be proven? No, I don't suppose you would say that either, so stating that evolution cannot be proved is a kind of stupid thing, is it not??
But we are closer to proving evolution than to proving that God exists. But as I said earlier; "a fluke, followed by millions after billions of flukes", is hard to prove.

But in my view, since all animals have evolved on this same planet as man, then a cat's life, or a dog's life, or why not a worm's life, is worth the same as yours or mine, which, sadly, is nothing. We give our selves and the people around us worth. How much do you think about the children dieing in Africa every day? And if your mom or cousin or best friend dies? What do you think I care more about, a couple of million children in Africa, or you mother? I have to admit that I care more about the children, but you would be lieing if you said you wouldn't trade millions of children's, who you have never heard of, lives for you mother's.

[js_mac]

How can you be so sure that it wasn't the jews who were right? How can you be so sure Jesus was who he said he was, you didn't see him walk on water or turn water into wine, that could just be stories that have grown out of proportion.

I'm guessing that what you're saying is that he's either a con man or a mad man. Firstly, he made no financial gain whatsoever from what he did. Then, there is the fact that his teachings are still, after 2000 years, the foundation of our society - no one has improved upon them.
He also, as you'll know, cured the blind, dumb, deaf, dying, fed 5000, resurrected 2 people, turned water to wine... all of which were witnessed by crowds of people. He showed unbelievable caring for all people - lepers, prostitutes etc.
Nowadays people don't really care about him - you obviously think you're too intelligent to be convinced.... but back then, people from every colour, creed, rich and poor alike, uneducated and intellectuals, and every age followed his word. Even nowadays, people, are risking torture, death and persecution if they follow his ways, yet they still do. You really think that just a plain old mad man, or a criminal could do that? It's natural that people would say those things.
You know why these people believe? Because he's affected their life somehow to make them believe - he obviously hasn't done it to you. I'm the most cynical person you could meet, but I, myself, have had a couple of strange things happen that could only be divine. If it happens to you, you'll know it.

Humans have evolved! No, dirt o particles didn't just fly together. When Earth was a lot younger than it is today and there was no land anywhere to be found, temperatures were very different from today and there were nasty storms and clouds covering Earth, there were lightning everywhere and somewhere there were the right kinds of aminoacids and proteins to make the very first living thing in this world, a one cell thing, when lightning struck. Man has actually been able to create conditions really close to the conditions back then, and have been able to make one celled things similar to these, the difference is that for some reason these cells created a long time ago started multiplying. Man made cells haven't done this (yet!) And so evolution started. It was a fluke, followed by millions after billions of flukes, that created man, that created you and me.
Earth wasn't created for man, there were the right conditions on Earth for man to evolv.


Hmmm, i'm not so sure about that. They may have made a living cell, but the fact they didn't get them to reproduce is a massive deal - to reproduce you need DNA/RNA which is unbelievably complex. Then there is the fact that it needs to be assembled the right way (again, probably trillions and trillions to one odds of that happening). Sure, the creation of life was a physical event, and man may one day find out how it happened. That proves nothing.
Earth wasn't created for man, there were the right conditions on Earth for man to evolv.
If this is so, look back to inconsistencies i mentioned a couple of posts back and prove them wrong - you'll say "oh yeah, it's fluke". Even though the odds of that happening are so enormous i can't think of a word to describe them.


And God can be proven? No, I don't suppose you would say that either, so stating that evolution cannot be proved is a kind of stupid thing, is it not??
But we are closer to proving evolution than to proving that God exists. But as I said earlier; "a fluke, followed by millions after billions of flukes", is hard to prove.

I doubt god will ever be proven with a scientific equation: humans are too dumb. It's estimated that we will never discover more than 1% of the universe's workings. If we don't prove god, it means nothing.

[Aravis]

How can you be so sure that it wasn't the jews who were right? How can you be so sure Jesus was who he said he was, you didn't see him walk on water or turn water into wine, that could just be stories that have grown out of proportion.

I'm guessing that what you're saying is that he's either a con man or a mad man. Firstly, he made no financial gain whatsoever from what he did.I only have my own theories as to what kind of man he was. My favorite theory is that he was an extremely smart guy who saw a lot of suffering around him and realized that these people whom he loved needed something good to believe in. And since he was poor and he couldn't give them anything else, he promised them (with more words and in a more convincing way) that they will go to heaven, or at least a much better place, when they die if they live as he tells them and treats others well.
Then, there is the fact that his teachings are still, after 2000 years, the foundation of our society - no one has improved upon them.
He also, as you'll know, cured the blind, dumb, deaf, dying, fed 5000, resurrected 2 people, turned water to wine... all of which were witnessed by crowds of people. He showed unbelievable caring for all people - lepers, prostitutes etc.I don't believe he did (resurrect people etc, he was probably a caring man), I'm not sure what happened, but for some reason people started to believe he did, and then spread the stories and the religion spread and grew. You know very well it's not the only religion around. People who believes in Buddha or Allah are just as sure as you are that that is the only true religion. That is what I meant when I made my reference to the jews.
Nowadays people don't really care about him - you obviously think you're too intelligent to be convinced....Has nothing to do with intelligence. From your way of writing and explaining I can see that you are not from the stupid end, but still you believe very strongly.
but back then, people from every colour, creed, rich and poor alike, uneducated and intellectuals, and every age followed his word. Even nowadays, people, are risking torture, death and persecution if they follow his ways, yet they still do. You really think that just a plain old mad man, or a criminal could do that? It's natural that people would say those things.Belief is a very strong thing, but that is exactly what it is; belief.
You know why these people believe? Because he's affected their life somehow to make them believe - he obviously hasn't done it to you. I'm the most cynical person you could meet, but I, myself, have had a couple of strange things happen that could only be divine. If it happens to you, you'll know it.Why do these divine things only happen to people who are either at the moment surronded by believers, or have been earlier in their lives? If for example someone is born in the middle of the jungle somewhere in Africa where the missionaries never find their way, how big is the chance that something divine happens to him and he starts to believe in Jesus, or even GoD?? What are his chances of going to heaven??

Humans have evolved! No, dirt o particles didn't just fly together. When Earth was a lot younger than it is today and there was no land anywhere to be found, temperatures were very different from today and there were nasty storms and clouds covering Earth, there were lightning everywhere and somewhere there were the right kinds of aminoacids and proteins to make the very first living thing in this world, a one cell thing, when lightning struck. Man has actually been able to create conditions really close to the conditions back then, and have been able to make one celled things similar to these, the difference is that for some reason these cells created a long time ago started multiplying. Man made cells haven't done this (yet!) And so evolution started. It was a fluke, followed by millions after billions of flukes, that created man, that created you and me.
Earth wasn't created for man, there were the right conditions on Earth for man to evolv.


Hmmm, i'm not so sure about that. They may have made a living cell, but the fact they didn't get them to reproduce is a massive deal - to reproduce you need DNA/RNA which is unbelievably complex. Then there is the fact that it needs to be assembled the right way (again, probably trillions and trillions to one odds of that happening). Sure, the creation of life was a physical event, and man may one day find out how it happened. That proves nothing.
Earth wasn't created for man, there were the right conditions on Earth for man to evolv.
If this is so, look back to inconsistencies i mentioned a couple of posts back and prove them wrong - you'll say "oh yeah, it's fluke". Even though the odds of that happening are so enormous i can't think of a word to describe them.1. Evolution has managed to develop animals who walk on either two or four legs, use either one, three or five toes on each foot, from the same animal. You think the three bones in our ears are special?
2. I'm not a chemist, I haven't studied water, and haven't thought about it.
3. I don't believe this is the only universe that has ever existed, probably not the only one that exists at this time. But if this universe didn't exist we wouldn't be debating it. The constants were there first, and without them we wouldn't have evolved.

I just had a thought. If God exists, then why do men produce millions of sperms all the time? If God knows exactly which sperm will find the egg to create a new person, what are all the others there for? Just to confuse man in the 20th century?? No, they are there so that there is a chance for at least one of them to swim all the way.
And God can be proven? No, I don't suppose you would say that either, so stating that evolution cannot be proved is a kind of stupid thing, is it not??
But we are closer to proving evolution than to proving that God exists. But as I said earlier; "a fluke, followed by millions after billions of flukes", is hard to prove.

I doubt god will ever be proven with a scientific equation: humans are too dumb. It's estimated that we will never discover more than 1% of the universe's workings. If we don't prove god, it means nothing.You just proved my point even more strongly than your own.

[js_mac]

I only have my own theories as to what kind of man he was. My favorite theory is that he was an extremely smart guy who saw a lot of suffering around him and realized that these people whom he loved needed something good to believe in. And since he was poor and he couldn't give them anything else, he promised them (with more words and in a more convincing way) that they will go to heaven, or at least a much better place, when they die if they live as he tells them and treats others well.

That is a pretty ridiculous proposition - no decent person like jesus would claim to be the son of god to prevent suffering. Also, his goal was to teach people - not to make them feel better. He didn't go around just talking to the poor/suffering - he attracted the rich. In fact, he had followers from every background. The thing is, no matter what you say, you're forgetting that it was documented and witnessed by crowds of people that he performed miracles like curing people... for a man to achieve such a following, he could only have performed miracles to the scale documented in the bible.

I don't believe he did (resurrect people etc, he was probably a caring man), I'm not sure what happened, but for some reason people started to believe he did, and then spread the stories and the religion spread and grew. You know very well it's not the only religion around. People who believes in Buddha or Allah are just as sure as you are that that is the only true religion. That is what I meant when I made my reference to the jews.


Yeah, we don't have photos, and the stories are 2000 years old, but think about how entire crowds witnessed his deeds and were convinced. Imagine he was around these days - people wouldn't give a **** if some normal guy went around caring for people. If he performed miracles, he would achieve a following... like he did then.
Yes, i know that is the case - but i don't know if you realise that islam, judaism, and orthodixism.... all religions set at the same period, but documented by an entirely different group of people, from different areas of the world. They all, however, follow the same story. There's references to ishmael, the father of islam in the bible, as is there to christianity etc in the koran. The jews only differ from us in that they believe jesus was a hoax, which is fair enough, seeing as he stole thousands of jews to his religion. As far as i know, jews and greek orthodoxes still all go to heaven as well as christians. Islam, however, is a bad religion... the bible talks long before muslims started that ishmael would be a thorn in the side of christianity, and he has been... muslims, you see, in their religion, aren't allowed to read about christianity, so see us as evil, as the koran preeches about us being their mortal enemy.
Buddhism etc, i think are ridiculous - the only evidence of their existence is what they say... i personally think your arguments of "religion is used for explaing the unexplainable" apply to them - i mean, men with elephant heads etc... sounds like someone sat there for a while inventing some wierd creature that would convince people they were a god.... jesus was just a man who changed the world.

Belief is a very strong thing, but that is exactly what it is; belief.

Why do these divine things only happen to people who are either at the moment surronded by believers, or have been earlier in their lives? If for example someone is born in the middle of the jungle somewhere in Africa where the missionaries never find their way, how big is the chance that something divine happens to him and he starts to believe in Jesus, or even GoD?? What are his chances of going to heaven??


They believe because they were convinced, not because they need something to believe in, because they're insecure - like i said, there are divine moments that can convert people in a second.
No, that's not true - i know staunch atheists who have had something happen and have suddenly converted to christianity... i mean people like you, that's how strong these things are; making people want to spend their lives following this religion.
Sticking to the realistic outcome here, yeah, he wouldn't know about jesus and the bible, because he hasn't heard their word... then he would go hell, simple enough. Many people go to hell, he was there in the jungle for a reason - it is the evil in this world that i talked about earlier that stopped him from hearing. You are, however, forgetting the millions of people in those situations who have, by fate, found christianity and converted - christianity is the world's fastest growing religion - these new followers are coming from people converted from other religions... that is God's good will showing through - it has reached worldwide, not by coincidence - has buddism etc spread outwith the peoples that founded it? No. Has islam? No. Has judaism? No.

1. Evolution has managed to develop animals who walk on either two or four legs, use either one, three or five toes on each foot, from the same animal. You think the three bones in our ears are special?
2. I'm not a chemist, I haven't studied water, and haven't thought about it.
3. I don't believe this is the only universe that has ever existed, probably not the only one that exists at this time. But if this universe didn't exist we wouldn't be debating it. The constants were there first, and without them we wouldn't have evolved.

I just had a thought. If God exists, then why do men produce millions of sperms all the time? If God knows exactly which sperm will find the egg to create a new person, what are all the others there for? Just to confuse man in the 20th century?? No, they are there so that there is a chance for at least one of them to swim all the way.

1. Yes, they are. Evolving another leg isn't a huge deal in evolutionary terms - how often do you hear about people born with 6 fingers etc? Same thing. If you knew what the 3 ear bones were like, you would understand - they are infinitely complex; perfectly aligned and designed to prevent energy loss, and perfect hearing. Look them up and think how impossible it would be for those to mutate the way they did... after all, how often do you hear about people growing another ear bone, let alone as perfect a bone as the ones in our ears today?
2. I have, and it's a mystery.
3. Exactly - i don't know what your point is... the constants were perfectly aligned to incredible odds, allowing us to live. Again, i'll mention what einstein said: "the more i study the universe, the more i believe that there is a god.

Yeah, i can see your point about the sperm. Yeah, god knows which sperm will fertilise, but he isn't going to make man release only one cell, which he then guides himself to the egg. As i said, god doesn't directly control EVERYTHING in this world so that it is perfect - ie wars. Again, i say just look at my comment at how this world is an in-between of heaven and hell, where god is present, but doesn't come and affect everything we do and see - ie evolution happens naturally, but under his overall control. Men evolved to produce millions of sperm for the biological benefit it has - yet god KNOWS, not CONTROLS exactly which sperm will fertilise the egg, like i said.

You just proved my point even more strongly than your own.

That wasn't my point - that was someone else who has different views to me.

[marniej214]

First of all, I would like to say that I do not blame God for the bad or difficult things that happen in my life. Everything happens for a reason. God uses different situations for us to learn from. It is up to us on how we choose to look at the situation and what we take from it.

Also, if as a Christian, you sin against a brother or sister, then before you can truly ask for repentence from God, you must be reconciled with one another. :)

You are right, I didn't see Jesus walk on water or turn the water into wine, but then again that is where the Bible comes in and a little thing called faith. The Bible is true. I honestly think, that people who question the Bible and it's teachings are scared. Scared of what is to come, scared of the thought of the life after this, or where they will be going. I can say this because my dad has done this exact same thing and this was after he left our family for another woman. He is scared about his salvation and is trying to find reasons as to how the Bible could be wrong, to make himself feel better, more empowered and not as guilty for his sin, but sorry, the Bible is correct and we will know that for a fact someday.

Jesus lived, there is proof that he lived back then. Also, if he was not the Son of God, then how could he have died and came back to earth again and speak to men and women? Answer me that.

I agree, that humans have changed some over the years, however, it really saddens me that you think that life means nothing and that a worm has the same value as yourself! God loves you so much and created you with a purpose and very uniquely! Where would the proteins have come from then? I just don't understand the view that everything happens by "fluke". That is so sad to me that you see your life as an accident or a fluke. It is definitely not! There is purpose and love behind every single person living today, lived in the past and to come in the future. Honestly, I love living my life knowing that I was created with purpose and value to not only people in my life, but to God as well. It must make you really sad living your life feeling as if you weren't meant to be or that because of lightening and some particles your ancestors developed. I am not trying to put you down in any way, that is not my intention. I have compassion for you and am trying to understand where you are coming from. Since I went to a public high school, I have run across people with views similar to yours, but I attend a private Christian University. I guess I have been used to that for quite some time, being around fellow believers and having taken that for granted.

Those who truly serve the Lord are given compassion for people because we know His love, which has an affect on us. Christians (well, for the most part) would do anything possible to better another's life. I would die for anyone, especially my family. I am not afraid whatsoever about my afterlife. I have nothing to fear, instead I have so much to look forward to. It will be paradise, being in God's presence all the time. I have placed my life in God's hands and know that I will be judged fairly when my time comes. He knows my heart and what I value in life, most importantly His will.

I totally agree with js_mac on how I believe even more because God has worked in my life with many miracles, that could only be described as divine. I pray that someday you can feel God working in your life and feel that undescribable feeling and presence of our Lord. That feeling is far better than any other feeling you could ever have. Thank you for reading this and I wish you the best on your quest to find the answers you are searching for.

[Aravis]

First of all I would like to point out the largest difference between believers and atheists (or at least me as an atheist): I am happy for every single person who has found something to believe in if this makes the person happy and makes him treat his fellow human beings in a kinder way. I am also happy for anyone who has realized that there is no greater power out there, so there is no need to search for one.

By marniej214
Also, if as a Christian, you sin against a brother or sister, then before you can truly ask for repentence from God, you must be reconciled with one another. :)
So actually you and I aren't of different minds on this one, it's just that I leave it at reconciling with the other person.

You are right, I didn't see Jesus walk on water or turn the water into wine, but then again that is where the Bible comes in and a little thing called faith.
Can you remember a rumor going around your school either about you or a friend of yours, where you knew the exact situation (because you were there when it happened) but then you heard about it one or two days later and you could hardly believe they were talking about the same happening, because it's changed so much, and people had exaggerated? Well, the Bible was written down more than 100 yrs after Jesus died, so don't you think there is a slight chance that something has been added to some of the stories?

The Bible is true. I honestly think, that people who question the Bible and it's teachings are scared. Scared of what is to come, scared of the thought of the life after this, or where they will be going.
The only thing I'm scared of when it comes to dieing is that it's going to hurt; I don't want to bleed to death or suffocate or anything like that. I'm also scared that I'll be a burden to the rest of my family because I'll get ill when I'm old. But I know what happens after death, I'll understand then as much as I understood before I was concieved, which is nothing; I will cease to exist, just as you will.

I can say this because my dad has done this exact same thing and this was after he left our family for another woman. He is scared about his salvation and is trying to find reasons as to how the Bible could be wrong, to make himself feel better, more empowered and not as guilty for his sin, but sorry, the Bible is correct and we will know that for a fact someday.
Well right now I feel sorry for your dad because he doesn't realize that the natural thing for humans is to change partners every 7-8 yrs. This applies to both women and men. This has been proven by research. So if you want your dad to be happy, just tell him that! Monogamy has been invented by jealous cavemen.

Jesus lived, there is proof that he lived back then. Also, if he was not the Son of God, then how could he have died and came back to earth again and speak to men and women? Answer me that.
I never said he didn't live. But he didn't come back to life. I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened, but maybe people dreamt about him and thought they had really talked to him.

I agree, that humans have changed some over the years, however, it really saddens me that you think that life means nothing and that a worm has the same value as yourself! God loves you so much and created you with a purpose and very uniquely! Where would the proteins have come from then? I just don't understand the view that everything happens by "fluke". That is so sad to me that you see your life as an accident or a fluke. It is definitely not! There is purpose and love behind every single person living today, lived in the past and to come in the future. Honestly, I love living my life knowing that I was created with purpose and value to not only people in my life, but to God as well. It must make you really sad living your life feeling as if you weren't meant to be or that because of lightening and some particles your ancestors developed. I am not trying to put you down in any way, that is not my intention. I have compassion for you and am trying to understand where you are coming from. Since I went to a public high school, I have run across people with views similar to yours, but I attend a private Christian University. I guess I have been used to that for quite some time, being around fellow believers and having taken that for granted.
You didn't put me down; you made me laugh, that was a funny comment!
In my opinion all living things have the same value. Why should any human have a higher value than any animal? It's not that I value my life as low as a worms, I value a worms life as highly as my own, and I believe it makes me a better and more compassionate person.
I don't need the feeling of being part of something big to be happy with my life. I have friends and family, but I don't go around thinking of them all as accidents, lol. If God is allknowing he knew Earth would become too small for us humans, so he should have made the planet bigger. Or he shouldn't have given women the possibility to have more than 4 or 5 children. Don't you see that humans are a virus to Earth? We exploit everything the earth and soil has to give in one place and then move on to the next. Or that's what we used to do, now there will be as many people in the next place so we just have to stay where we are.
But my life has value to the people who love me and to myself, and I love living only for myself and doing things for myself, not to please some higher power in order to buy me a place in heaven.

Those who truly serve the Lord are given compassion for people because we know His love, which has an affect on us. Christians (well, for the most part) would do anything possible to better another's life. I would die for anyone, especially my family. I am not afraid whatsoever about my afterlife. I have nothing to fear, instead I have so much to look forward to. It will be paradise, being in God's presence all the time. I have placed my life in God's hands and know that I will be judged fairly when my time comes. He knows my heart and what I value in life, most importantly His will.
You don't know me. I am compassionate, friendly, nice, helpful. Not because there is an old man breathing down my neck, but because I want to. I haven't read the Bible, but I have thought about doing it, not to "find God", but because I know that many of the stories has a morale and it teaches people to treat eachother kindly. But I don't believe the Bible is true, it's just another book full of bedtime stories.

[Aravis]

That is a pretty ridiculous proposition - no decent person like jesus would claim to be the son of god to prevent suffering.
You don't know Jesus personally, so how can you know he was decent. And before you say "the Bible says so", read my post to marniej214.

Yeah, we don't have photos, and the stories are 2000 years old, but think about how entire crowds witnessed his deeds and were convinced. Imagine he was around these days - people wouldn't give a **** if some normal guy went around caring for people. If he performed miracles, he would achieve a following... like he did then.
It wasn't as hard then to convince people. People who live now have seen too much already to ever be convinced that someone was the son of God, we've seen magicians do exactly the same things that the Bible claims Jesus did.

Yes, i know that is the case - but i don't know if you realise that islam, judaism, and orthodixism.... all religions set at the same period, but documented by an entirely different group of people, from different areas of the world. They all, however, follow the same story.
There must be thousands upon thousands of other religions that don't follow these stories. Some of them might have died out, there are new ones to come, but in my opinion, none of them are true.

Buddhism etc, i think are ridiculous - the only evidence of their existence is what they say... i personally think your arguments of "religion is used for explaing the unexplainable" apply to them - i mean, men with elephant heads etc... sounds like someone sat there for a while inventing some wierd creature that would convince people they were a god.... jesus was just a man who changed the world.
Religions never start in one day. There might have been stories about men with elephant heads or six arms and after some generations people forgot that they were only stories and started to believe in them. Why is it so hard for you to see that I feel the same way about Jesus? I don't mind when people around me believe as long as they don't try to convert me, because I am as secure in my beliefs as you are in yours, if not even more secure!

You are, however, forgetting the millions of people in those situations who have, by fate, found christianity and converted - christianity is the world's fastest growing religion - these new followers are coming from people converted from other religions... that is God's good will showing through - it has reached worldwide, not by coincidence - has buddism etc spread outwith the peoples that founded it? No. Has islam? No. Has judaism? No.
Christianity is the only religion where God forgives everything you do as long as you ask for forgiveness. There is no punishment for anything. It's much more fun to have a God who doesn't really care what you do as long as you'll ask for forgiveness before you die, than to have a God sitting on a shelf in your cupboard counting how many cookies you eat (my friend believed this when she was a kid, she's a happy non-believer now!) And that was just an example of what an evil God might do!

1. Yes, they are. Evolving another leg isn't a huge deal in evolutionary terms - how often do you hear about people born with 6 fingers etc? Same thing. If you knew what the 3 ear bones were like, you would understand - they are infinitely complex; perfectly aligned and designed to prevent energy loss, and perfect hearing. Look them up and think how impossible it would be for those to mutate the way they did... after all, how often do you hear about people growing another ear bone, let alone as perfect a bone as the ones in our ears today?
2. I have, and it's a mystery.
3. Exactly - i don't know what your point is... the constants were perfectly aligned to incredible odds, allowing us to live. Again, i'll mention what einstein said: "the more i study the universe, the more i believe that there is a god.
1. Okay, I've looked them up. They are complex. So how do you figure some higher force could create them and not evolution?
But when it comes to extra bones and such, those are only mutations. Children are born deaf, which means that not all earbones are perfect from the start. Same thing in my opinion.

Yeah, i can see your point about the sperm. Yeah, god knows which sperm will fertilise, but he isn't going to make man release only one cell, which he then guides himself to the egg. As i said, god doesn't directly control EVERYTHING in this world so that it is perfect - ie wars. Again, i say just look at my comment at how this world is an in-between of heaven and hell, where god is present, but doesn't come and affect everything we do and see - ie evolution happens naturally, but under his overall control. Men evolved to produce millions of sperm for the biological benefit it has - yet god KNOWS, not CONTROLS exactly which sperm will fertilise the egg, like i said.
Nice try!

You just proved my point even more strongly than your own.
That wasn't my point - that was someone else who has different views to me.So all of a sudden it is possible to prove that God exists? I know that's not what you meant, just review what you comment on before commenting!

[js_mac]

Bloody hell, this is boring now.

You don't know Jesus personally, so how can you know he was decent. And before you say "the Bible says so", read my post to marniej214.

As far as i know, the bible was compiled 100 years after he died, not written, which would make more sense as well. I'm not an expert on the bible stories etc, but I'm sure that the books are named after their authors (the ones like job etc, not exodus before you say), who were all alive to witness those events, which proves that point. Even so, are you insinuating that jesus could actually have been a knob, but some guy thought he would make this wanker sound nice for absolutely no reason? Ignoring this, the whole new testament talks about the miracles he performs, like curing people, and things like forgiving prositutes, and even his murderers. It just isn't feasible to completely alter the whole thing, and, as i mentioned, other religions mention jesus' works. I think i can safely assume he was a decent guy.

It wasn't as hard then to convince people. People who live now have seen too much already to ever be convinced that someone was the son of God, we've seen magicians do exactly the same things that the Bible claims Jesus did.

There were magicians then. Also, have you seen david copperfield bring back dead people? I think you're ignoring that modern magicians use computers, giant mirrors, and carefully-positioned cameras to create their tricks. I don't think jesus had access to that back then.

There must be thousands upon thousands of other religions that don't follow these stories. Some of them might have died out, there are new ones to come, but in my opinion, none of them are true.

Yeah, undoubtedly there are, but most have like 3 people who follow them. I say just look again at my earlier stuff on other religions. That's fine - up to you; it's not my goal for you to turn into a bible-basher.

Religions never start in one day. There might have been stories about men with elephant heads or six arms and after some generations people forgot that they were only stories and started to believe in them. Why is it so hard for you to see that I feel the same way about Jesus? I don't mind when people around me believe as long as they don't try to convert me, because I am as secure in my beliefs as you are in yours, if not even more secure!

Nah, do you think it's likely that people in a few years will read lord of rings, and that whole countries will suddenly think that there's hobbits living down the road? Those were documented events in the bible - not stories... look at the way they are written. I personally think a man who is the son of god and who cures the sick etc is more realistic than a man with six arms and another with an elephant's head (of all things to have as a head) creating the universe. I know it is hard for you to believe - i think it's hard to believe. Even the pope admits he has doubts about the credibility of this all at times. Nah, like i said before, i'm not into that heavy christian, "thou are evil, follow the lord!" stuff. I've had people who think i'm not a good christian turn into that on me before and it pisses me off too. You believe whatever you want.

Christianity is the only religion where God forgives everything you do as long as you ask for forgiveness. There is no punishment for anything. It's much more fun to have a God who doesn't really care what you do as long as you'll ask for forgiveness before you die, than to have a God sitting on a shelf in your cupboard counting how many cookies you eat (my friend believed this when she was a kid, she's a happy non-believer now!) And that was just an example of what an evil God might do!

Nah, it's not as easy as that - first, you have to believe, which most people don't; then there's the fact that jesus said that you won't get into heaven unless he knows you, which means you have to speak (pray) to him. Then, there is certain sins which are unforgivable - eg homosexuality is evil, but if you don't practice it, you're ok. Then again, you can't just bum men all your life in then go "sorry" before you die and expect to go to heaven - you have to truly mean it. Also, if you, aravis, were to say meaninglessly "sorry, i believe" before you die 'just in case' you would still go to hell. I, personally, think that's one of the things that makes christianity good - that we can do that.

1. Okay, I've looked them up. They are complex. So how do you figure some higher force could create them and not evolution?
But when it comes to extra bones and such, those are only mutations. Children are born deaf, which means that not all earbones are perfect from the start. Same thing in my opinion.

Some evolutionary biologists found that they were one of things in our body that is just too complicated for the relativity blunt and innaccurate process of evolution. If you properly think about it - it is unlikely to get the 3 bones to begin with (but possible in this sense) but then there is the fact that thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of mutations must have occurred to make them the perfect shape they are. The chances of just one of those required mutations occurring are massive, never mind thousands. I could talk about those bones and how they're nigh-on impossible to have been made by evolution for ages, but i'm not.
Like i said in my sperm comment, that is just nature causing a mutation in the sex cells of the parents that causes an error in the ear of the child.

Nice try!

I thought that was a pretty good explanation - it makes sense in every way... is it just because you have nothing to say back to it... I get bored of replying to difficult posts, so i understand....

So all of a sudden it is possible to prove that God exists? I know that's not what you meant, just review what you comment on before commenting!

Eh? No, I never put that view across. Yes, i agree, but this marnie isn't really arguing - just putting her/his views across, so i felt i had to reply for her/him and me, which is pretty difficult when i don't agree with some of her/his views.

Anyway, I'm getting bored of typing these massive posts. I'm not going to change my mind, and neither are you, so this all seems a bit pointless.

[Aravis]

Anyway, I'm getting bored of typing these massive posts. I'm not going to change my mind, and neither are you, so this all seems a bit pointless.Yep, so am I.

However, there is one thing I would like to say. I read about 50 pages from the beginning of the old testamente. Now if you want to talk about inconsistencies, lets talk about the old testamente! First, God created man before he created Adam, so how can Adam have been the first? Second, where did Kain get his two wives from? They were the second generation of humans, but they weren't daughters of Adam and Eve... And in the 50 pages I read, there were many more similar "weird things".

And if you believe in the Bible, don't say you only believe in certain parts, that would be hypocrisy!

So you believe in the Bible, and take the inconsistencies with the rest. I can see how you can have such a big problem with the perfection of the universe and the inner ear!

Well, I've had my coffee, now I have to work!

[OneyCM]

quick question i am trying to enter army
are two dui 5 yrs ago a problem sorry its off subject

[js_mac]

However, there is one thing I would like to say. I read about 50 pages from the beginning of the old testamente. Now if you want to talk about inconsistencies, lets talk about the old testamente! First, God created man before he created Adam, so how can Adam have been the first? Second, where did Kain get his two wives from? They were the second generation of humans, but they weren't daughters of Adam and Eve... And in the 50 pages I read, there were many more similar "weird things".

And if you believe in the Bible, don't say you only believe in certain parts, that would be hypocrisy!

So you believe in the Bible, and take the inconsistencies with the rest. I can see how you can have such a big problem with the perfection of the universe and the inner ear!

What, god didn't create man before he created adam. Adam was the first man. It talks about how god created everything in the 7 days, including man. It then goes on to talk about man (the man was adam).
Yeah, I see your point about the wives, but, as far as i can see, there is a huge jump in time between cain and abel being born and then being adults; as well as another between cain being banished and having a wife. Whatever happened in this point of time i don't know. This doesn't make it an inconsistency, as what happens is unknown. I know you already talked about it, but I don't really understand most of the beginning of the bible - It's thousands, or even millions of years put on a couple of pages. I'm not an expert on it, but that wife point doesn't seem relevant - the people who wrote it obviously weren't idiots that happened to completely miss that whole point out... perhaps god made them wives the same way he made eve, or even many more humans were made in the same way, as it talks about cain being scared of meeting other people after being banished.

I wouldn't, however, put these on the same level as the inconsistencies I mentioned before - as i said, it's just unclear - not incorrect or inconsistent.

[Aravis]

What, god didn't create man before he created adam. Adam was the first man. It talks about how god created everything in the 7 days, including man. It then goes on to talk about man (the man was adam).
Okay, I'll buy that. (Not that the Bible is true, mind you!)

Yeah, I see your point about the wives, but, as far as i can see, there is a huge jump in time between cain and abel being born and then being adults; as well as another between cain being banished and having a wife. Whatever happened in this point of time i don't know. This doesn't make it an inconsistency, as what happens is unknown. I know you already talked about it, but I don't really understand most of the beginning of the bible - It's thousands, or even millions of years put on a couple of pages. I'm not an expert on it, but that wife point doesn't seem relevant - the people who wrote it obviously weren't idiots that happened to completely miss that whole point out... perhaps god made them wives the same way he made eve, or even many more humans were made in the same way, as it talks about cain being scared of meeting other people after being banished.

I wouldn't, however, put these on the same level as the inconsistencies I mentioned before - as i said, it's just unclear - not incorrect or inconsisten.
The three things you mentioned before aren't inconsistencies. They aren't flaws, as you said before; the universe is perfect. That you think it's too perfect is one thing, but it's not inconsistent, same argument goes for the three ear bones. Okay, I can't explain the water thing, but you're the one who pointed out that it has been estimated that only 1% of everything in the world might be proven (or explained) by man.

So in conclusion. Of the two things to believe in; neither inconsistent, one far from perfect, the other "too" perfect, I choose to believe in the latter, namely that the universe got to be this beautiful and perfect without any help.

[torspo[fin]]

In the beginning Man created God;
and in the image of Man
created he him.

2 And Man gave unto God a multitude of
names,that he might be Lord of all
the earth when it was suited to Man

3 And on the seven millionth
day Man rested and did lean
heavily on his God and saw that
it was good.

4 And Man formed Aqualung of
the dust of the ground, and a
host of others likened unto his kind.

5 And these lesser men were cast into the
void; And some were burned, and some were
put apart from their kind.

6 And Man became the God that he had
created and with his miracles did
rule over all the earth.

7 But as all these things
came to pass, the Spirit that did
cause man to create his God
lived on within all men: even
within Aqualung.

8 And man saw it not.

9 But for Christ's sake he'd
better start looking.

-Jethro Tull

[js_mac]

The three things you mentioned before aren't inconsistencies. They aren't flaws, as you said before; the universe is perfect. That you think it's too perfect is one thing, but it's not inconsistent, same argument goes for the three ear bones. Okay, I can't explain the water thing, but you're the one who pointed out that it has been estimated that only 1% of everything in the world might be proven (or explained) by man.

So in conclusion. Of the two things to believe in; neither inconsistent, one far from perfect, the other "too" perfect, I choose to believe in the latter, namely that the universe got to be this beautiful and perfect without any help.

Yes, they are. You don't seem to realise how important those 3 ear bones are in that they are INCONSISTENT with the theory of evolution. Yes, they're not flaws in the universe - you're mis-reading what i said - they're oddities in the way certain aspects of the universe work. These oddities are what makes the universe perfect.
No, they know how water does that, it's just that it's incredibly strange that it does, and the fact that it does that probably allowed life to flourish on this planet.
By saying that 1% of the universe won't be understood, i mean that it's perhaps possible to somehow create a spaceship that can fly at a million times light speed, but we will most likely never discover how to do that. That wasn't one of my major points about the strangeness of the universe though - i said it because you claimed that we aren't even close to proving god exists.

[Armybrat4life]

I believe it is both.

[OneyCM]

I'm Christian,If your Christian you have to believe in Creation nowhere in the Bible (Gods Holy Word) does it say God created monkey then it turned into Adam and then God took a rib and made Eve. HE SAID HE Made MAN wise up Christians take a stand

ps Muslims Suck who said that I said that, the infidel!

[Aravis]

I'm Christian,If your Christian you have to believe in Creation nowhere in the Bible (Gods Holy Word) does it say God created monkey then it turned into Adam and then God took a rib and made Eve. HE SAID HE Made MAN wise up Christians take a stand

ps Muslims Suck who said that I said that, the infidel!
What mushrooms are you on? Or did you forget to take your drugs this morning?

[nbakyfan]

I'm Christian,If your Christian you have to believe in Creation nowhere in the Bible (Gods Holy Word) does it say God created monkey then it turned into Adam and then God took a rib and made Eve. HE SAID HE Made MAN wise up Christians take a stand

ps Muslims Suck who said that I said that, the infidel!
Actually, there's one exception.

Catholics :D

Catholics don't take the Old testament word to word.

I believe that we did not evole from ape, however the world took longer then 7 days to create. God was trying to explain this to people who had little knowledge about science and still believed the earth was flat, the sun and moon moved around the earth, etc. And who knows? Maybe God created did create ape first, saw a potentional for a better species, made some changed until he came to humans!

[andoman_42]

Right....time to add some fuel to the fire.

If God created man how come there has been findings of fossiles that shows a development from homo habilis all the way to modern homo sapiens during a couple of million years? How do you explain these findings then if you claim that God made man? Just that neandethals and the likes did not exist or are not related to modern man? In my eyes these are proof of the evolution theory....but then again...thats just my view........

[js_mac]

Nah, I believe in theistic evolution (that evolution did happen, but under the control of god). As i said before, genesis is weird, and i'm not sure how it is meant to be understood. That's just my personal opinion though.

[Aravis]

Right....time to add some fuel to the fire.

If God created man how come there has been findings of fossiles that shows a development from homo habilis all the way to modern homo sapiens during a couple of million years? How do you explain these findings then if you claim that God made man? Just that neandethals and the likes did not exist or are not related to modern man? In my eyes these are proof of the evolution theory....but then again...thats just my view........
Oh common! You know Earth is an experiment by aliens and the true rulers are white mice. The fossiles were of course buried there to be found by stupid humans who actually think digital watches are cool.

No, but hey, didn't you know that neanderthals were a different species that died out? They had a much bigger head and brain. We don't know why they died out, just that they did.
I have to read up on that again, once I was so fascinated by the evolution of man, but now I've forgotten alot of it... :(

[andoman_42]

Thank you Aravis for correcting me. Homo neanderthalensis was as you say not of the same lineage. My bad.....