The Nazis and the Jews.

[kurusch]

Hitler began WW2 as a way of nuetralising France and the UK and to invade and sieze the Soviet Union, He wanted two things, lebensraum and the oil-fields. Oh, and the Ukranian wheat prairies (the bread-basket of Europe), that's three reasons, sorry. Thankfully he eventually failed but not until countless millions died, the Soviets occupied most of Eastern Europe, and the British and its empire was exhausted, leaving two superpowers to dominate the world for 50 years with the constant threat of nuclear war.
What my question is; if the Nazis hadn't had such a paranoid fear of Jews and spent millions of marks and man-hours trying to exterminate them, might they have won? Imagine all those marks being fed directly into the war effort and those tens of thousands of troops being sent to the eastern front.

[torspo[fin]]

Interesting question..
there would still be numerous variables.

i'd say that the war would have lasted longer and would have ended
very much differently. if the "nazis" wouldn't have been racist,
would they have been so hostile alltogether? but lets go with the
conquering plan anyhows.

-manpower increase
-time/money/resources saved
-political difference

hm.
i'd say we might all be speaking German as our secondary language :D
well possibly not.. depends :)

major differences in this alternative history would include such things as
Albert Einstein and other jewish scientests not fleeing to US because the nazis.. and you all know what that would mean. when you take note that Germany was leading
the atomic bomb research in early 30's, its more than possible that
Germany would have had nuclear capability before the Allies.

Many Jewish were businessmen and didn't like the Communist ideology.
this would have propably resulted them to join the German war effort in numbers.

because the violence in the german streets (against the jews) wouldnt have happend
there would have less doubts against the german leadership. thus resulting
in even grater troop morale. The axis alliance would have propably been stronger too.
Finland for example had serious doubts against nazi ideology.. so we never formally
allyed with Germany. Then the Soviets started to make unreasonable demands to give them
land from Karelian ismuths and we didnt really have too much resources to defend
ourself with, so we had to get some aid from somebody.

if Germany would not have been anti-semitic and racist, Finland might have propably
joined in the Axis alliance as "full-time member".

in the Continuation war we stopped on our old border because we only
wanted back the terretories we lost in winterwar, and we realised the fact
that we most live next door with Russians anyways. But if the
german invasion in the south would have proven strong, we might
have gone bit further, perhaps cutting the vital murmansk railrad etc..
who knows. this railroad was used to transport reinforcements and equipments
to the front (including US lendlease material, but thats another story.).

western front. With the manpower and resource increase in Germanys side
, British would have been 1. really badoff. 2. Axis member 3. occupied

and US had serious problems with German subs to beginwith. In thease circumstances,
there would have been more of them. German subs torpeidoed huge amounts
of supplys going to UK. historically, this was one of the key factors which nearly resulted
Allied defeat.
(German subs torpeidoed US ships and cargo vessels to the US harbors without much problems because US was illprepared for this sort of warfear at the start of the war.)

with even bigger resources at Germanys disposal, it would have been able
to destroy more US supplys than US could have manufactured to replace
the destroyed ones. this would have resulted to allied loss also.

[Harrington]

']

if Germany would not have been anti-semitic and racist, Finland might have propably
joined in the Axis alliance as "full-time member".



If Hitler hadn't hated the Jews, the entire 3rd Reich never would have been formed, it was based entirely on hate politics.

[torspo[fin]]

]if the "nazis" wouldn't have been racist,
would they have been so hostile alltogether? but lets go with the
conquering plan anyhows.

If Hitler hadn't hated the Jews, the entire 3rd Reich never would have been formed, it was based entirely on hate politics.
most certanly true.. but war there would have been anyways i gather.
without the western front perhaps.

[royal marine]

yes hitlers primary objective was killing all jews but we would of still won the war if he had no hatred of jews cos of that massive great red war machine in the east

[torspo[fin]]

That "grate" red war machine wasnt that grate in the Winterwar perioid..
(30 November 1939 - 13 March 1940)

Mainly because of the Stalins purges cut away most of the experienced officers.
Red armys tactics were poor in arctic conditions
(winter war indeed.. -40 celcius sometimes. that winter was harsh.)
and often kinda fatalistic..
infantry marched and ran in massive numbers... unfortunately mostly in maxim fire..
thease kind of tactics allowed some Finnish soldiers gain huge amounts of confirmed kills..
(for example Simo Häyhä, Sniper with about 500 kills..)

hm.. something to read about Winterwar:

http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/winter_war/
(a bit "coulored" story I'd say.. but goes with the spirit of those days.)


well.. after the grate Red Army performed so lowsy in winterwar against small Finnish forces..
Hitler went and underestimated the whole Russian warmachine.
then he went in guns blazing.. and well.. you know the rest.

the thing here is Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. it placed Finland in
soviet "sphere of influence".

now.. if this non-aggression pact wouldnt have ever been...
it would be possible that the Germans would have attacked earlier
in the Soviet Union.. especially without the western front.
if Finnish would have had access to more German equipment and
Germany would have started barbarossa directly after winterwar,
i'd quess it would have been catastrofic to the Soviet union.

http://www.winterwar.com/

[royal marine]

thats bacos they were confused when hitler attacked them after the pact they made.....ever heard of the confusion at smolensk......uve gotta admit without russia wed be speaking german....look at how they took berlin and drove countless elite german regiments right back to germany......but now they are not good anymore cos of thyre fall of communism




this is away from the subject but i personally think britain are gonna come right wing

[kurusch]

If Hitler hadn't hated the Jews, the entire 3rd Reich never would have been formed, it was based entirely on hate politics.

NO. Almost everything that occurred up to the war, would have happened anyway. It was national pride and wanting to work and eat that persuaded the Germans to put Hitler in power, and it was a stinging hatred of the WW1 defeat that drove Hitler (and the so-called need for lebensraum).

[kurusch]

[QUOTE='torspo[fin]'


'if the "nazis" wouldn't have been racist,
would they have been so hostile alltogether?'
You mean the level of hatred in the system? I accept that but I think there was enough nationalism and bitter resentment against the old enemy to make the Nazi state and army quite ruthless enough.

'manpower increase
-time/money/resources saved'
Precisely.




'major differences in this alternative history would include such things as
Albert Einstein and other jewish scientests not fleeing to US because the nazis.. and you all know what that would mean. when you take note that Germany was leading
the atomic bomb research in early 30's, its more than possible that
Germany would have had nuclear capability before the Allies.'
Absolutely. Hitler, in his mad race for Jewish extermination, could have lost the world some of its finest brains.

[Harrington]

NO. Almost everything that occurred up to the war, would have happened anyway. It was national pride and wanting to work and eat that persuaded the Germans to put Hitler in power, and it was a stinging hatred of the WW1 defeat that drove Hitler (and the so-called need for lebensraum).

And guess who Hitler blamed for their defeat and collapse in economy in WWI? The Jews.

[torspo[fin]]

And guess who Hitler blamed for their defeat and collapse in economy in WWI? The Jews.

Hitler is not = Germany.

as i see it..
this thread is about how Germany without racial hate
would have performed in the war.
so this is a "what if" thread.
Pointing out the historical fact that nazis hated jewish doesn't serve
the thread in anyway.
Think of it like this.. take the hatered torwarted to jews, and channel
it to the German war effort.

[capwil]

During WWII the German forces made several errors, mostly due to Hitler's lack of leadership. If he would've heeded the advice of his generals, instead of making all military decisions on his own I'm sure he would've conquered Europe. Another factor with that is when some allied pilots bombed Berlin by accident; which outraged Hitler, and diverted all his bombers from the allied airfields to the city of London. That allowed the British to rebuild their air defences and counter the bombers over London. If Hitler had thought more clearly about his tactics he would've conquered all of Europe.

That aside, the Jews were just considered peasants to the Germans. The Germans thought of themselves as being inferior to all other races, and/or the "only human beings". On that alone, it grew into great hatred for the Jews throughout the army. By mid 1944, the Germans were executing hundreds of thousands of jews per month throughout Europe. Most soldiers had it burned into their skulls that the Jews are useless, and serve no purpose and deserve to be slaughtered; After working them close to death to begin with.

With the start of every new age, there is a major escalading conflict between nations. The rise of the industrial age brought Hitler to power and he rearmed the German war machine. As if the Germans didn't learn from WWI! I don't think Hitler was much of a history buff after all, or he would've made better decisions. Anyway, what I think is irrelivent. The poor russians on the other hand got their share of action in too. The Germans killed any civilians they came across, for fear if Stalin caught them, he would give them a one way army ticket against the advancing Germans. Civilians were also very important to war production. So, like the Jews, the russian civilians were also being murdered without cause, or purpose.

There are several factors that could've been recognized to help the war effort for both sides. On the bright side, at least the Germans didn't utilize nuclear technolgies before the Americans!

After all, war doesn't decide who's right. It decides who's left.

[royal marine]

errr no he would not of conquered all of europe dipstick,we won the battle of britain by pure tactics and brillaint pilots not flipping mistakes....how about the ratio-364 british planed against 2000 (sumin like that)........anyway even general von runstdet said that invading britain would be like putting their forces through a sausage machine,and they werent even sure about attacking in operation sea lion they just trained beach landings just to make sure but then they did make sure and attacked our air force.......if hitler would of put his whole german army into britain then it would of been a challenge

[capwil]

errr no he would not of conquered all of europe dipstick,we won the battle of britain by pure tactics and brillaint pilots not flipping mistakes....how about the ratio-364 british planed against 2000 (sumin like that)........anyway even general von runstdet said that invading britain would be like putting their forces through a sausage machine,and they werent even sure about attacking in operation sea lion they just trained beach landings just to make sure but then they did make sure and attacked our air force.......if hitler would of put his whole german army into britain then it would of been a challenge


Glad to see you have great pride. I do as well ,but the truth still remains: The Germans did not start a war so they could lose. I'm not at all a fan of the Nazi regeme, but if they made better decisions they would've conquered a lot more territory before the allies pushed them back.

Hitler wanted all the british airfields bombed outright. He wanted to destroy the RAF on the ground. When bombs were dropped on Berlin (by accident from a navigation error), Hitler decided to flatten London. He left the air fields alone, which allowed the British to rebuild their defence, and counter the bombers flying to London. If Hitler had stuck with bombing the airfields and factories, the Germans would have undoubtedly invaded England.

The plane ratio was in Germany's favour. But, planes weren't the issue in England. Able pilots were. The RAF had only 2/3 the force to man their operational aircraft. Hugh Dowding said so himself "We need to find more pilots, or lose."

Read more before you criticize, dipstick.

[royal marine]

1 think how about you read before you critisize cos winston churchill ordered us to bomb berlin after a bombing raid in england,it was no mistake it was revenge for what they did,winston churchill was a ruthless bastard,thats why they called him the bulldog


DIPSTICK
try to look up stuff rather than say that hitler made mistakes therefore we BEAT singlehandedly.......its what you call american jealousy......you are the only dumb american on this site everyone else is decent

[capwil]

I'm not an American, dipstick. Churchill was somewhat ruthless, but he still served his country proudly and with good morals - much better than Hitlers mind you. Bombers were sent to destroy a few german war-machine factories outside Berlin, between their navigational equipment and poor weather; led to the bombing of Berlin - which made Hitler turn his Luftwaffe to attack London, instead of the British airfields. That allowed the British to rebuild and strengthen their air defence to fight off the Luftwaffe.

I don't mean to be rude, but your spelling isn't much better than your knowledge of history. I'm glad to see that at least you met the minimum requirements for the infantry.

FYI: My mack CH603 has a Bulldog on the top of the grille. It doesn't look menacing, nor does it try to be. It soldiers on day after day battling heat, rain, sleet, snow and blowing dust. And - it never goes underground!

[royal marine]

first of all how about you try to get into the royalmarines WHICH is the 2nd most hardest selection course and basic training in the world AND that was carried out by americans it even beats the navy seals selection course so shut up, and alsoIF YOU READ IT UP YOU WILL FIND THAT AFTER A BOMBING RAID IN ENGLAND CHURCHILL ORGANISED A BOMBING RAID ON BERLIN


DIPSTICK!!!!!!!!........as i say to most dicks like you READ IT UP FIRST

[royal marine]

sorry guys my mistake it wasnt on berlin it was somewhere else, LOL......and who can be bothered to spell right

[royal marine]

oh so the bombing of of london let us rebuild our strengths to fight them easier :rolleyes: my god apart from the stuka raids on our airfields 24/7 and meshersmit 109 and 190 raids strafing in on our airfields ALL THE TIME.......yeah we had an easy time :rolleyes:

[capwil]

The stukas were sent to bomb the radar towers. Anything further inland then, they wouldn't have the fuel to return to base. The 109's had only 10-30 minutes flying time over london to protect the bombers before they had to return to base or become a part of the landscape. The only airfields that were occasionally bombed were a few along the channel. Any fields past London were rarely affected by any raids. That gave the british time to rebuild what air force they had left. Within days, they were taking out the stukas and heinkel's above london and along the coast.

[royal marine]

yeah exactly radar towers....which menas no radar and also 10-30 minutes was enough to blow up most of duxford and many other places
DIPSTICK

[Texas]

NO. Almost everything that occurred up to the war, would have happened anyway. It was national pride and wanting to work and eat that persuaded the Germans to put Hitler in power, and it was a stinging hatred of the WW1 defeat that drove Hitler (and the so-called need for lebensraum).


I think you'll find that The National Socialist Parties grip in the Reichstag was already in decline when Hitler was made Chancellor by Hindenburg. Hindenburg gambled that by making Hitler Chancellor .He(Hitler) would naturally discredit himself and show himself as a bag of wind and thus proving to the German people that Hitler was not the answer to Germanys Economic problems . A fatal miscalculation by Hindenburg Who died the following year.