Are there any Catholics here?

[Armybrat4life]

I am and I am very proud of it. :) :p ;) :D Are you?

[kay]

no i am not proud to be a catholic. i hate being a catholic :mad:

[Armybrat4life]

Why do you hate beeing Catholic. I love it because where I live there arne't that many. And when my teacher talks about Baptist, like the class is only Baptist, I can give her rude remarks that bring her back to reality with out gettting in trouble.

[yomchi247]

Why do you hate beeing Catholic. I love it because where I live there arne't that many. And when my teacher talks about Baptist, like the class is only Baptist, I can give her rude remarks that bring her back to reality with out gettting in trouble.


One of the reasons religion is hated so much today...

[bright_eyes]

I love being Catholic :) I think nothing beats the tradition of mass, the values, and the history of the Catholic religion. We're part of one of the oldest religions in the world and if you ever stop and think about all the people before us who shared our beliefs and all the people after us who'll continue to share our beliefes...it's kind of overwhelming. I don't think there's a number high enough to count all the Catholics that have been around since Christianity started. Very few other religions can say that

[dublin91]

VERY proud here! I live in a proud catholic country where 95+% of the nation is catholic!!
I dont like the new pope that much tho!!

[dublin91]

HEY! Armybrat4life i just read that u wish u lived in ireland! I live in ireland. Dublin!! I am a former Irish troop. served in africa for a little while and then I quit after my break. well I wasent needed anymore! It was not much fun! ever wana talk send me a message!!

[wibubba]

Proud 100% ATHEIST here.

[USArmywidow]

Hi there,
I'm catholic, grew up in a all catholic family. My children are also catholic.So is 90% of the town I live in. The only thing that bothers me a lot is that we, Germans, are the only ones to pay taxes to the church every month. I wonder is there any other country that pays this? I know it has nothing to do with the religion, but I see more and more people turn their back on the church ( getting out of the relighion) to avoid the taxes.

God'b blessings

[Armybrat4life]

I used to live in Germany. I loved it there. Also yes in the US we pay taxes to the church. I alos grew up in an all Catholic family.

[Pathfinder UK]

Yeah I love being part of a redundant religion that has little relevance in modern day affairs. I love how Catholic priests abuse the kids they are entrusted to protect. I also love how sexsist the Catholic church is as-well. And the bible, it's great. Who cares that it contradicts itself on almost every issue, I sure as hell don't.
I apologise to anyone I offend, but I have quite strong views over Catholicism and Christianity as a whole. Please feel free to criticise my lack of belief, I enjoy religous debates.

[js_mac]

So do I. The only real reason you don't believe is because you can't comprehend a greater being who controls all. I can't either, really, but there is a greater being. One thing for you to think about - how did the universe begin? Granted, no one really knows - the most accepted theories are the big bang, and m-theories. No matter which way it started, it had to start somehow. How? The big bang theory states that a ball of energy smaller than an atom exploded to produce the entire universe, a universe perfect in every way.... :confused: You really mean to say that there is a rational explanation for that. No matter what kind of messed-up physics went on, I have enough knowledge of physics to know that nothing can't just become something. The ONLY explanation is divine intervention. If you think that I'm saying that just because I'm too uneducated in the workings of the universe, or that I am just plain too stupid; Einstein himself (considered by many to be the most intelligent human ever) said "the more that I studied the universe, the more I believed that there was a God".
Ooohh, I can't wait to see you come back to that.

[Pathfinder UK]

I actually do believe in some sort of divine force, I'm just not sure how that force manifests itself. I agree that the creation of the universe must have had some sort of greater power guiding it and so I do believe in a 'god'. What I do disagree with however is organised religion and the Christian religion especially. I've studied Christianity for about three years solidly now (in my O and A levels) and every piece of advice on any moral issue is either not relevant to modern day life or is simply contadicted a few pages on. For example take the birth of Christ. Read through each account from each of the apostles and realise that the apostles are simply four conflicting stories over this issue.
We used to debate almost every issue of life, using the bible as a guide, and could find just as strong arguments for war as we could against it, arguments that supported and rejected abortion, divorce, drugs, drink, euthenasia, crime, terrorism, and many more ( I wish I hadn't thrown my RS study books out :rolleyes: ). This book helps no-one get good straight advice without an equally strong conflicting view being presented to you a few pages on.
Also the church has alot of history of corruption, especially around money. In England (can't remember the dates), priests and higher authorities in the church took advantage of the god-fearing population and conned them into giving the church their money. They offered forgiveness in exchange for a quick, one-time fee, that allowed the purchaser to get to heaven.
I could go on by my hands hurt! I'd like to see a Catholic's point of view on me, so any Catholics reading please join the discussion.

[jmm001847]

Ok has anyone actually seen him? Is there any type of proof to this rediculus subject?? My answer to these questions is No there is noone who has seen him who is not being bared behind church doors or who isnt in a mental institution. There is no proof and if there is let me know and id like to see this proof. So dont just put a page from the bible in here.

This page shouldnt be placed in an army website anyway it should be on a church webpage if there is any such thing.

[Pathfinder UK]

Ok has anyone actually seen him? Is there any type of proof to this rediculus subject?? My answer to these questions is No there is noone who has seen him who is not being bared behind church doors or who isnt in a mental institution. There is no proof and if there is let me know and id like to see this proof. So dont just put a page from the bible in here.

This page shouldnt be placed in an army website anyway it should be on a church webpage if there is any such thing.


Sorry chief but I understood none of that.
Saw who God??? If your narrow minded enough to believe only in those things that you have seen I pity you greatly. Have you ever personally seen China? Maybe it doesn't exist and is just a clever ploy to increase work output amongst the textiles industries.
I realise that I can't expect everyone to grasp difficult tasks such as reading but I should point out that this thread is in 'The lounge'. Threads dedicated to any topic besides the Military.

Peace and Love everyone

[js_mac]

What I do disagree with however is organised religion and the Christian religion especially. I've studied Christianity for about three years solidly now (in my O and A levels) and every piece of advice on any moral issue is either not relevant to modern day life or is simply contadicted a few pages on. For example take the birth of Christ. Read through each account from each of the apostles and realise that the apostles are simply four conflicting stories over this issue.

I don't know what you mean about moral issues not beong relevant. I can't think of any; perhaps you could find one. The bible does contradict itself, but there is a reason for this, and that is simply that views changed while the bible was being written, usually caused by some sort of vision as far as i know. The main point of change was when jesus appeared. The old testament is very old-fashioned (people should be executed for stealing etc and the "eye for an eye; tooth for a tooth" ideas). When jesus came and spread his word, he changed this completely, in that all sins should be forgiven (love thy neighbour etc). I haven't read the stories of the apostles for a long while, so i can't say much on that except that I'm sure that you might see that they conflict, but obviously not everyone agrees with you, looking at christianity's following.

We used to debate almost every issue of life, using the bible as a guide, and could find just as strong arguments for war as we could against it, arguments that supported and rejected abortion, divorce, drugs, drink, euthenasia, crime, terrorism, and many more ( I wish I hadn't thrown my RS study books out ). This book helps no-one get good straight advice without an equally strong conflicting view being presented to you a few pages on.

As I said before, the bible does contradict itself, but you're exaggerating a bit saying that it conflicts each argument a few pages later. Even if the bible was completely made-up by some lunatic (oh yeah, very likely) he/they obviously wasn't stupid enough to just contradict himself every couple of pages, seeing as the bible has a following of more than 1 billion people. If you go to an internet search engine and ask for biblical guidance on any topic, every site will quote the same verses from the new testament; if you go to any sunday school in the world they'll use the same verses to teach people the same things.
Anyway, I'm no expert on every detail of the bible, so my info on it is a not brilliant. You're best asking a christian who does know about it.

Also the church has alot of history of corruption, especially around money. In England (can't remember the dates), priests and higher authorities in the church took advantage of the god-fearing population and conned them into giving the church their money. They offered forgiveness in exchange for a quick, one-time fee, that allowed the purchaser to get to heaven.
I could go on by my hands hurt! I'd like to see a Catholic's point of view on me, so any Catholics reading please join the discussion.

Em, i don't know about that. That's the 1st i've heard of it. I'm not saying you're lying, but that is nothing to do with christianity - that's just a few greedy scum who give christianity a bad name.

Anyway, religions like buddhism and hinduism are just plain ridiculous - 8-armed men and men with elephant heads; in my opinion they're a desperate attempt by some eccentric old men at creating something so ridiculous that it would appear godly.
Christianity, like judaism, islam, and orthodoxism, however, are far more realistic, in my opinion.
The thing that makes me so certain that one of these 4 is the "right" religion is that they are all inter-related. The books of those religions all talk about each other, and the same events actually occur in their different stories. (eg birth of christ, and the adam and eve story - even the names are the same - to name just 2). In fact, the old testament of the bible is almost identical to the first half of the jewish and orthodox religions' books (i don't know their names).
What makes me think that christianity is the true religion is because it is the only religion that you have to do nothing to go to heaven. All that is asked is that you follow the bible's word as best as you can and that you recognise that you are a sinner and ask forgiveness. Then you will be forgiven. Every other religion asks you to pray 3 times a day and not eat or do certain things, which is crap in my opinion. It should be noted that the bible says that both orthodoxes and jews can go to heaven (or so i heard).
The bible even explains how the other religions were formed, and how those religions came to be. The same story (same names and everything) is mentioned in the other religions.
An interesting note is that in the bible it mentions the forming of islam by ishmael, the 2nd son of abraham. It goes on to say that ishmael is evil and that his religion will be the thorn in the side of the world and christianity. Funny that, looking at the present world, seeing as it was written before islam even started.

[Pathfinder UK]

Lol!
It's nice to talk to someone who actually knows what he's talking about. I don't agree with how you say Christianity is 'realistic'. First of all what I meant by it not being rellevant to today is in referencew to drug use and consumption of alcohol. There are several things in the bible and Christian events that are totally irrelevant to the modern day. Take for example the standard wedding service in which the bride promises to allways 'serve' her husband. This, I think you'll agree, is very old fashioned and in no-way should a wife live to serve her husband when he will not in return promise his service.
There are also many problems with the bible's guide to divorce. As the bible stems from something very old, laws concerning divorce and adultery are also very irrelevant. There are still cases where women have been widowed and the church will not allow them to get re-married inside their church community. This forces the widow to either surrender her faith or live her life out alone.
Of course I was exaggerating by saying that the bible contadicts itself every few pages however any one study a subject such as war with the bible as a guide will recieve no guidance due to it's conflicting messages.
For war:
'The lord is a warrior', ''melt down your ploughs and turn them into swords', 'story of Joshua and the walls of Jericho', 'Just war theory',
against war:
'all of St Pauls 'love'quotes e.g Love is kind, love bears no score of wrongs', 'melt down your swords and turn them into ploughs', 'lessed are the peacemakers', 'Do not kill',

I'm sorry I can't provide any way to find these quotes as I'm working from memory of a Religous studies course on Christian principles I did about two years ago.

As to scandal in the church. That info is just basic history concerning the feudal ages.
Just look at how the churches took cut from taxes and how they became the biggest land-owner in the UK (still are to my knowledge). Not bad for a religion based around a messiah who was the son of a carpenter. A man who dedicated his life (and wealth) to helping the poor and rode into Jerusalem on a simple Donkey.

All in all the Church (and many other religions) were started as a simple means of control and a means to explaining the unexplanable. The church helped install monarchy in the Uk and stopped the people's rebelling against the governments by stating that the governments and Kings were placed by God. Also look at how similiar Christian religous events are to other religions such as early pagan religions. Christmas was originally a pagan festival, kidnapped by Christianity (scientists belive Christ's birthday was nearer to March).

I agree that the bible's forsight with regard to problems with the muslim race are quite profound if not a little racist. I also like how you say the church is more beliveable than say buddhism. Buddhists don't even believe in a single all powerful being so I'm not sure what thats founded on. Just read through the bible (I know I have), half of it is phsycotic. Most of it can only be the invention of old men on what I presume is opium. Burning bushes, Noah's arc, Huge whales, a capenter healing lepers and turning water into wine (neat party trick :rolleyes: ), Jesus walks across water and feeds thousands with only two loaves and two fishes. If this isn't unbleivable stuff I don't know what is. Just look at the creation story, now that is somne believable stuff. I God is supposed to be 'all knowing' why did he simply not put a snake in the garden of eden, or why didn't he kick Judas out of the disciples.
The simple answer to a religion debate is that there is no simple answer. The Christian religion is flawed as all religions are, Christian God is 'all loving' and yet won't allow non-belivers into heaven???
I really now wish I hadn't thrown my pages of Christian principles notes away because I would be able to justify my argument alot better to the extent that you'd be crying in terror with the sheer weight of my bible quotes.
:D

[js_mac]

First of all what I meant by it not being rellevant to today is in referencew to drug use and consumption of alcohol. There are several things in the bible and Christian events that are totally irrelevant to the modern day. Take for example the standard wedding service in which the bride promises to allways 'serve' her husband. This, I think you'll agree, is very old fashioned and in no-way should a wife live to serve her husband when he will not in return promise his service.
There are also many problems with the bible's guide to divorce. As the bible stems from something very old, laws concerning divorce and adultery are also very irrelevant. There are still cases where women have been widowed and the church will not allow them to get re-married inside their church community. This forces the widow to either surrender her faith or live her life out alone.
What you think a wife owes to her husband is your own opinion and you can have it. I'm not entirely sure if I understand what you're saying. The only reason the bible is irrelevant in modern society is because people don't like the idea of being told what to do by a religion that they don't believe in, so religious teachings and beliefs have been removed from all our laws. This has purely happened because of the liberal revolution in the '60s. I don't see, however, how that point proves christianity isn't real.
If, however, what you're trying to say is that "if god rules the world, why does he let us piss around doing what we want; getting drunk and high?"? Interestingly, the bible prophecised this happening. It said that there would be a repeat of the events that led up to the noah's ark story - ie people deserting christianity in droves and sin being rampant. Unnervingly, this prophecy was the precedance to the apocalypse; that the apocalypse doesn't seem far, i doubt many atheists would completely deny, with nuclear war not being a million miles away. (north korea and china, terrorists getting nukes etc.)
I know that just you'll reject that as coincidence, but if you read the book of revelations you'll find that much of the events leading up to the apocalypse are actualling happening right now . I can't remember them all, annoyingly, but i still remember the verse: "when the jews return to israel, the end will begin" or something like that. I think it's pretty interesting that the jews were only allowed back into israel in 1947 by the british after (i think) hundreds of years of absence of control. Notably, this was roughly the time of the beginning of the cold war and the nuclear arms race.
Of course I was exaggerating by saying that the bible contadicts itself every few pages however any one study a subject such as war with the bible as a guide will recieve no guidance due to it's conflicting messages.
For war:
'The lord is a warrior', ''melt down your ploughs and turn them into swords', 'story of Joshua and the walls of Jericho', 'Just war theory',
against war:
'all of St Pauls 'love'quotes e.g Love is kind, love bears no score of wrongs', 'melt down your swords and turn them into ploughs', 'lessed are the peacemakers', 'Do not kill',
I don't have a bible on me either, but that goes along the same lines of what i mentioned before, with christ arriving and changing the old, generally violent, views of the old testament into the more peaceful message of the new testament. This, i think, would be the reason the same "swords and ploughs" analogy would be used in each of the points you quoted. (to emphasise this change of views, if you know what i mean.)
As to scandal in the church. That info is just basic history concerning the feudal ages.
Just look at how the churches took cut from taxes and how they became the biggest land-owner in the UK (still are to my knowledge). Not bad for a religion based around a messiah who was the son of a carpenter. A man who dedicated his life (and wealth) to helping the poor and rode into Jerusalem on a simple Donkey.
Yeah, again, i don't think that can prove christianity is wrong. I doubt very much they are the biggest landowner right now, firstly.
I agree with you about the church taking too much money, but I think the church did this during it's catholic-dominated, pre-reformation period (the catholic church was far more extravagant than the protestant church). On that note, catholics don't base their religion around the carpenter jesus too heavily. Protestantism (i am protestant, by the way) does, however, and is MUCH less extravagant (no pope etc).
All in all the Church (and many other religions) were started as a simple means of control and a means to explaining the unexplanable. The church helped install monarchy in the Uk and stopped the people's rebelling against the governments by stating that the governments and Kings were placed by God. Also look at how similiar Christian religous events are to other religions such as early pagan religions. Christmas was originally a pagan festival, kidnapped by Christianity (scientists belive Christ's birthday was nearer to March).
I both agree and disagree with that. I think a lot of people liked the comfort of being able to explain the unexplainable. However, I think that christianity was FORMED because of the message in the bible (with that 1st point being an added bonus, i'm imagining).
I mentioned before how, unlike what atheists say, scienctific developments aren't proving religion to be redundant (remember the universe and einstein's quote). However, i can't say much on that seeing as i wasn't there to see how christianity actually began.
Just read through the bible (I know I have), half of it is phsycotic. Most of it can only be the invention of old men on what I presume is opium. Burning bushes, Noah's arc, Huge whales, a capenter healing lepers and turning water into wine (neat party trick ), Jesus walks across water and feeds thousands with only two loaves and two fishes. If this isn't unbleivable stuff I don't know what is.
Yes, it is weird, and I even find it hard to believe (so does every christian). To attempt to explain this, all i can say is that back in the old testament times, God was kind of ever-present in daily life - performing miracles etc. I'm guessing he would have done some pretty messed up stuff (the plagues in egypt etc). On that topic, the plagues have actually been documented in non-religious writings. (i watched a documentary about it, and how some atheists tried to explain it - they didn't.) I presume other biblical events have been too, but i don't know of any. Then there is the fact that all the "4 realistic religions" mention the same events in their own religions.
Actually, i just remembered that i watched a documentary a few months ago where some archaeologists actually found that the Red Sea's floor split open unexplainably and it drained itself, and at the exact same time that was written in the bible (when the jews ran through the red sea from the egyptians). Even more extraordinary is that they found the remains of egyptian chariots at the bottom of the red sea (remember how it refilled and drowned the egyptians once the jews got across)
The bible does sound unbelievable at times, but i truly think that all that "weird stuff" did happen.
On the topic of Jesus performing miracles, if he was such a phony why did thousands come from all over the world just to see him? His actions are documented in countless writings as well. In fact, i think it is the general consensus nowadays that jesus did actually exist. (Again, the "real 4" all mention jesus.)
Just look at the creation story, now that is somne believable stuff. I God is supposed to be 'all knowing' why did he simply not put a snake in the garden of eden, or why didn't he kick Judas out of the disciples.
The simple answer to a religion debate is that there is no simple answer. The Christian religion is flawed as all religions are, Christian God is 'all loving' and yet won't allow non-belivers into heaven???
I really now wish I hadn't thrown my pages of Christian principles notes away because I would be able to justify my argument alot better to the extent that you'd be crying in terror with the sheer weight of my bible quotes.
I agree with you - the creation story is weird, and rightly so - how well-documented is it likely to have been? As the quote goes: "God works in mysterious ways". Everything he does is to a set plan, and everything he does, he means to do. I mean, without the snake, society wouldn't exist as it does. If judas had never been a disciple, christ would have never died for our sins, and christianity wouldn't exist as it does today.
Yes, he is all-loving. He even loves osama bin-laden. If osama bin laden was to pray to jesus and beg forgiveness for his sins (genuinely) he would go to heaven.

[Pathfinder UK]

I think that's the reason I have such problems accepting Christianity, it's beliefs in forgiveness and love. Do you think that the Early church slaughtered Pagan's and Celts in England with love in their hearts? You think the Crusades occured because of love? Just look at the Apartide (spelt wrong sorry) and how several denominations of the Church supported it. The Protestant Dutch Church is one that leaps to mind. The trouble is that so much evil has been commited in the name of religion and yet most religions claim to base their teachings around love (something must obviously be wrong to give them the idea that killing is sometimes right. Just look at the 'Just war theory' written by Thomas Aquinas (a member of the modern church, raised on the 'peaceful' new testament. I'm not sure if your familiar with it so I'll explai. It's just a basic tick list that makes a conflict or war 'just' in the eyes of God. So let me get this straight, It's ok to break one of the ten commandments (Do not kill) as long as it conforms to a set of rules??? That is sureley making a complete mockery of the Christian love and forgiveness principles, It's actually ok to kill as long as it's in certain circumstance.
You also keep talking about how the old testiment is old fashioned and out of date. Surely your simply proving my point that the bible is out of date. If you say that the new testament is alot more peaceful than the old, why was the old included in the first place?
Surely the Old testament makes a mockery of the New by being placed in the same book as each other. Am I to believe that the warrior, smiting, unforgiving God simply changed when Jesus camew along. Maybe having a son made him mature very suddenly or perhaps just made him lazy (would explain him not having much say in human affairs in the new testament and modern day). Perhaps God was a spotty, destructive teen untill he reached puberty and toned it down a bit. You have to see that by placing two completely contrasting testaments together, the bible does nothing but contadict itself between testaments.
You want a quote to support warfare and killing, flip to the old testament, want one to say how killing is wrong, simply go a few chapters forwards.

You then say, if Jesus was not a miracle worker why did people come from all over to see him. Have you switched on a TV lateley??? Look at English Soccer players, Basketball players or Film stars. These people have followings from all over the world but I don't belive that David Beckham or Tom Cruise are miracle workers.
I propose that Jesus was a simple politician of sorts. The Romans were very su****ious of Jesus and believed him to be starting a rebellion of sorts. Perhaps that was his goal. We know that he held speaches where thousands turned up to listen to his words. Maybe his speeches were of revolution, I don't believe that the Roman su****ion was completely unfounded. A modern day example of a politician/rebellion instigator is Ghandi. Ghandi started rebellion in India and people from all over the world came to hear his speeches and offer their support. Ghandi used peaceful protest, whats to say Jesus wasn't doing something similiar. He preached peace and was suspected of rebellion by the authorities.

I agree with you - the creation story is weird, and rightly so - how well-documented is it likely to have been? As the quote goes: "God works in mysterious ways". Everything he does is to a set plan, and everything he does, he means to do. I mean, without the snake, society wouldn't exist as it does. If judas had never been a disciple, christ would have never died for our sins, and christianity wouldn't exist as it does today.
Yes, he is all-loving. He even loves osama bin-laden. If osama bin laden was to pray to jesus and beg forgiveness for his sins (genuinely) he would go to heaven.

Many people also say that Jesus died for our sins. What!!! Is life any better today than it was then. Does crime no-longer happen. Do we live in a perfect utopia were there is no suffering or war or disease. Thanks Jesus, your death sure made this crap hole of a world we live in better.
I also like how you decribe the Cold war as the start of the second coming. You do realise that the end of the world has been prophesised almost everyday in modern day life by ordinary Christians and preachers.

can't remember them all, annoyingly, but i still remember the verse: "when the jews return to israel, the end will begin" or something

Lol! The church has allways been against the Jewish race as they are often blaimed by many Christians to have caused the death of Christ. Sureley Christians are forgetting that God is all knowing and all powerful and so probably guided the Jewish peoples actions himself. After all without the Jews how would our sins have been wiped away???

Please don't misunderstand that I dislike all Christians however. I do have a certain respect for those devout enough to devote their entire lives to something without a smidgen of scientific or historical proof behind it.

[js_mac]

I think that's the reason I have such problems accepting Christianity, it's beliefs in forgiveness and love. Do you think that the Early church slaughtered Pagan's and Celts in England with love in their hearts? You think the Crusades occured because of love? Just look at the Apartide (spelt wrong sorry) and how several denominations of the Church supported it. The Protestant Dutch Church is one that leaps to mind.
The overall message of the bible is that of forgiveness. Some people naturally don't like the idea of that. As far as I know, the general consensus is that if they're an enemy of the church (ie want the church destroyed, and are trying to do so) then it's not hell-worthy to kill them if it's deemed necessary (ie not just nuking the middle east because they're muslim, but it would probably be ok to do so if they nuked us first, if you know what i mean). For example, the crusades happened because muslims invaded the christian holy land. In my opinion, it wasn't bad to fight back against them so as to reclaim it. I don't know much about what went on in south africa, so i can't comment on that. In any case, human nature prevails sometimes, and christian people's hatred for others comes out in the form of violence, even when the bible doesn't support it. (God recognises we're not perfect, which is why jesus died for our sins, so we can be forgiven.)
The trouble is that so much evil has been commited in the name of religion and yet most religions claim to base their teachings around love (something must obviously be wrong to give them the idea that killing is sometimes right. Just look at the 'Just war theory' written by Thomas Aquinas (a member of the modern church, raised on the 'peaceful' new testament. I'm not sure if your familiar with it so I'll explai. It's just a basic tick list that makes a conflict or war 'just' in the eyes of God. So let me get this straight, It's ok to break one of the ten commandments (Do not kill) as long as it conforms to a set of rules??? That is sureley making a complete mockery of the Christian love and forgiveness principles, It's actually ok to kill as long as it's in certain circumstance.
Again, i'm not saying you're lying. As i said just there, it is ok to kill if u follow a set of rules. It'd be a bit messed-up if the bible outlawed any form of killing, like if islamic terrorists were walking down the street hanging christians we were all to sit by and watch. It's only really in desperate situations that you are to kill thought (after all it is one of the 10 commandments). I don't think, again, that that proves christianity is all crap.
You also keep talking about how the old testiment is old fashioned and out of date. Surely your simply proving my point that the bible is out of date. If you say that the new testament is alot more peaceful than the old, why was the old included in the first place?
Surely the Old testament makes a mockery of the New by being placed in the same book as each other. Am I to believe that the warrior, smiting, unforgiving God simply changed when Jesus camew along. Maybe having a son made him mature very suddenly or perhaps just made him lazy (would explain him not having much say in human affairs in the new testament and modern day). Perhaps God was a spotty, destructive teen untill he reached puberty and toned it down a bit. You have to see that by placing two completely contrasting testaments together, the bible does nothing but contadict itself between testaments.
You want a quote to support warfare and killing, flip to the old testament, want one to say how killing is wrong, simply go a few chapters forwards.
The old testament is included, because it is documented evidence of god written by apostles, and it tells how christianity started. Remember the bible was written continually throughout thousands of years, not just all flung together a few hundred years back. Why should the old testament be erased? It would be pointless.
I don't know everything that happened back then, but it could be that people before jesus mis-interpreted what was going on, and weren't following god's will properly, so he sent jesus (as a prophet) to spread his word. Either that or it's because god's usual method of smiting etc to make people follow his word wasn't working (remember the noah's ark story), so he said "screw it", i'll send my son along to die for their sins so they can go to heaven. (Before jesus did that, people couldn't sin once in their lives or they'd go to hell. Probably why God was so strict.) Also, the old testament isn't as war-mongering and violent as you make-out. Remember the 10 commandments were written then. "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth", not "just kill everyone". What changed with jesus' arrival is that people were supposed to be open to forgiving those who crossed them, and not just beat them down.
You then say, if Jesus was not a miracle worker why did people come from all over to see him. Have you switched on a TV lateley??? Look at English Soccer players, Basketball players or Film stars. These people have followings from all over the world but I don't belive that David Beckham or Tom Cruise are miracle workers.
I don't think it's quite right to compare jesus to david beckham. Think back to that day when there was no media. Imagine a guy like david beckham who was good at football. Do you think people would flock to him in droves, and literally worship him still today? And when there was no media to spread the news.
I propose that Jesus was a simple politician of sorts. The Romans were very su****ious of Jesus and believed him to be starting a rebellion of sorts. Perhaps that was his goal. We know that he held speaches where thousands turned up to listen to his words. Maybe his speeches were of revolution, I don't believe that the Roman su****ion was completely unfounded. A modern day example of a politician/rebellion instigator is Ghandi. Ghandi started rebellion in India and people from all over the world came to hear his speeches and offer their support. Ghandi used peaceful protest, whats to say Jesus wasn't doing something similiar. He preached peace and was suspected of rebellion by the authorities.
Hmm, interesting theory. This could be true, except ghandi preached against the british. Jesus did nothing of the sort. He preached the word of God. He wasn't by any stretch of the imagination trying to cause a revolution against the romans. Then, of course, there is the small fact that jesus performed miracles, which, as i mentioned before, were documented in many non-religious documents. I watched another documentary about this (there was a whole series of these documentaries on the bible) and how they looked at these documents and tried to find scientific prove for how he could have healed the blind etc. As you can imagine it wasn't too convincing and rather unrealistic (some blind people are known to regain sight etc, even though he did regain his sight at the exact moment jesus "healed" him).
Many people also say that Jesus died for our sins. What!!! Is life any better today than it was then. Does crime no-longer happen. Do we live in a perfect utopia were there is no suffering or war or disease. Thanks Jesus, your death sure made this crap hole of a world we live in better.
That wasn't the point of jesus dying - to make life better. It was to make afterlife better. The world is so bad nowadays is because it's full of atheists and terrorists. Nothing to do with jesus. As i mentioned a while back, revelations prophecised this happening to the world not long before judgment day. It's then that many people will be thankful jesus died for our sins.
I also like how you decribe the Cold war as the start of the second coming. You do realise that the end of the world has been prophesised almost everyday in modern day life by ordinary Christians and preachers.
Not really, I'm using it to boost my point; that revelations prophecised huge numbers of people suddenly turning from god, and society falling to new depths (this is happening, you said it just there). Revelations also prophecised that the start of the world's end would begin when the jews re-entered israel, which happened in 1947; funnily at the start of the cold war when the nuclear arms race began and nuclear war became a reality (nuclear war will most likely cause the end of the world). That is what i meant.
I'm saying that the apocalypse could happen in the next few years, and on pretty good religious evidence i'd say. As for those people who predict the end of the world almost every day, that is because they're basing their belief on what i just said, and get excited every time a natural disaster or terrorist attack happens, because they believe it really is the end. They're a bit insane in my opinion. Also, speaking of natural disasters, the bible mentioned that the frequency of natural disasters will increase as the apocalypse nears. (Research shows the frequency is increasing) And with a huge and overdue earthquake building up in the san andreas fault and global warming making the weather more and more extreme, it's likely to keep increasing.

[js_mac]

Lol! The church has allways been against the Jewish race as they are often blaimed by many Christians to have caused the death of Christ. Sureley Christians are forgetting that God is all knowing and all powerful and so probably guided the Jewish peoples actions himself. After all without the Jews how would our sins have been wiped away???
Ha, no, you misread what i said. That isn't anti-semitic; it's just saying that the jews re-entering israel is a sign of the apocalypse approaching. The church isn't against jews - the jews causing jesus' death is just the personal opinion of a few. Jesus, after all was called "the king of the jews". Christianity is very close to judaism, and the bible doesn't support violece to them. In a sense, they're our religious allies.
Please don't misunderstand that I dislike all Christians however. I do have a certain respect for those devout enough to devote their entire lives to something without a smidgen of scientific or historical proof behind it.
Think what you want, but i think i've given some pretty good scientific and historical evidence to show that christianity is not a lie.

(I had to put this in 2 posts because it said that the original was too big)

[Pathfinder UK]

I will think what I want. Like I said at the beginning, there is no simple answer or right or wrong in a religous debate. Usually, when two people with closed minds meet, there is no middle ground or compromise either.
You say how you have scientific and Historic evidence to prove that Christianity is not a lie. Please provide some... I've quoted alot out of the bibble at you and you've responded with your opinion rather than any evidence. I realise it is hard to come up with feasable evidence but I'm interested in seeing some weight to your argument. At this rate I'll walk away feeling the same way about Christianity as I did last week. Give me some real evidence, I think thats all that all atheists want.

the general consensus is that if they're an enemy of the church (ie want the church destroyed, and are trying to do so) then it's not hell-worthy to kill them if it's deemed necessary (ie not just nuking the middle east because they're muslim, but it would probably be ok to do so if they nuked us first, if you know what i mean

Not really. The commandments say 'Do not kill', not 'Do Not Kill' and then in small print that you can in special circumstance. You talk about nuking the middle east if they nuked us. How can a Christian support that? Nukes show no sense of proportionality. You think your God would allow you into paradise for slaughtering innocent civilians??? Jesus came along and dispelled old sayings like 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. He replaced them with 'if your enemy strikes your right cheek offer him your left'. In no way or circumstance should a christian nation or person seek revenge as this voids all of Jesus' teachings. Jesus didn't die on the cross vowing revenge, he died forgiving his murderers.

don't think it's quite right to compare jesus to david beckham. Think back to that day when there was no media. Imagine a guy like david beckham who was good at football. Do you think people would flock to him in droves, and literally worship him still today? And when there was no media to spread the news.

Why not? Back in Jesus' time, news was mainly passed by word of mouth. Passed between continenets by merchant vessels and traders. These traders would tell stories of their travels and obviously add a little embellishment to make the story more exciting. Those who heard them would tell their friends and again add more embellishment to bring the story alive. Try playing Chinese whispers and see if a message stays intact. We started with a humble carpenters son who preached the word of God and soon we have a demi-god capable of miracles who is God's own son none the less. You see in this way tales of Jesus' exploits spread around the world, and each time the stroy was passed on the tales attatched to Jesus grew larger and larger.

Hmm, interesting theory. This could be true, except ghandi preached against the british. Jesus did nothing of the sort. He preached the word of God. He wasn't by any stretch of the imagination trying to cause a revolution

How do we know? I doubt you can tell me that Jesus kept a journal and so no one can really say his true motives.

That wasn't the point of jesus dying - to make life better. It was to make afterlife better. The world is so bad nowadays is because it's full of atheists and terrorists.

This one made me laugh. The world is a bad place because of Atheists and terrorists. Them and them only. Criminals are fine, priests who abuse kids are fine, nuking the middle east is ok but wait, if you don't believe in God your about as evil as a terrorist??? Sure thing, I'm evil and deserve to be branded a terrorist. After all I don't go to church. Who cares that my family have allways lived peacefully and don't even have so much as a police warning to our names.

1947; funnily at the start of the cold war when the nuclear arms race began and nuclear war became a reality (nuclear war will most likely cause the end of the world).

Just to be argumentative. The nuclear arms race sureley started before this when Germany and America where racing to develop nuclear arms to use upon the other. Fortunatly the German people where defeated before the Americans produced their firts working nuke.
With this in mind nuclear arms can't be the beginning of the end of the human race as like you said the Jewish people entered Israel a few years later. I'd prefer to think that the end would come in a more peaceful way for example rapid and uncontrolable population growth in China.

[js_mac]

I will think what I want. Like I said at the beginning, there is no simple answer or right or wrong in a religous debate. Usually, when two people with closed minds meet, there is no middle ground or compromise either.
You say how you have scientific and Historic evidence to prove that Christianity is not a lie. Please provide some... I've quoted alot out of the bibble at you and you've responded with your opinion rather than any evidence. I realise it is hard to come up with feasable evidence but I'm interested in seeing some weight to your argument. At this rate I'll walk away feeling the same way about Christianity as I did last week. Give me some real evidence, I think thats all that all atheists want.
How am I supposed to have rock-hard proof? If I had that do you think I would keep it to myself? I've given you countless amounts of evidence. Eg the formation of the universe, the red sea's opening, the documentation of jesus' miracles in non-religious writing. It is, however, just evidence, so a closed-minded atheist is not likely to accept it at any rate. That is what is the difference between an atheist and a religious person - we have faith. We have no more reason to believe this stuff than you. We just have a faith and strong will that you don't. Anyway, why do I have to prove this? Why don't you prove me wrong. Prove there was no jesus, or that he was a liar. All you've used is vague bible quotes that show nothing, and your own theories as to what jesus really was. The thing is you were obviously born to be an atheist, and that won't change most likely.
Actually, come to think of it, one piece of evidence you can't understand is that most christians have had some sort of weird, divine event that has converted them. I've actually had one, and one that was strong enough to convert me from a die-hard atheist to a christian.
Not really. The commandments say 'Do not kill', not 'Do Not Kill' and then in small print that you can in special circumstance. You talk about nuking the middle east if they nuked us. How can a Christian support that? Nukes show no sense of proportionality. You think your God would allow you into paradise for slaughtering innocent civilians??? Jesus came along and dispelled old sayings like 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. He replaced them with 'if your enemy strikes your right cheek offer him your left'. In no way or circumstance should a christian nation or person seek revenge as this voids all of Jesus' teachings. Jesus didn't die on the cross vowing revenge, he died forgiving his murderers.
Firsly, yes, i typed that nuke comment up without thinking. Killing innocents is completely wrong.
The debate of whether christians should kill under any circumstance is a complicated one, and one that I can't resolve myself. On one hand you have people like george bush, and on the other you have your die-hard christian pacifists.
I found a site that might interest you http://www.rationalchristianity.net/apol_index.html
How do we know? I doubt you can tell me that Jesus kept a journal and so no one can really say his true motives.
We know because every one of his actions/speeches was documented in the bible....
This one made me laugh. The world is a bad place because of Atheists and terrorists. Them and them only. Criminals are fine, priests who abuse kids are fine, nuking the middle east is ok but wait, if you don't believe in God your about as evil as a terrorist??? Sure thing, I'm evil and deserve to be branded a terrorist. After all I don't go to church. Who cares that my family have allways lived peacefully and don't even have so much as a police warning to our names.
It made you laugh because you're an atheist who considers himself to be more "enlightened" than religious people, and, hence, struggles to accept that it is atheism that is the route of crime. Every religion on earth condones crime. Think about it. Priests who abuse kids are not proper priests and will be punished and maybe even sent to hell if they don't repent. Not believing in god isn't evil; rejecting God is evil. Ok, you're actually implying that i'm putting you on the same level as a terrorist? Bull****. Don't twist the truth to support your argument. You'll be laughing on the other side of your face when you're in hell being bummed by demons 24 hours day.
Just to be argumentative. The nuclear arms race sureley started before this when Germany and America where racing to develop nuclear arms to use upon the other. Fortunatly the German people where defeated before the Americans produced their firts working nuke.
With this in mind nuclear arms can't be the beginning of the end of the human race as like you said the Jewish people entered Israel a few years later. I'd prefer to think that the end would come in a more peaceful way for example rapid and uncontrolable population growth in China.
I really don't understand what point you're making. So what if the nuclear arms race started 4 or 5 years before i said? Does that prove me wrong? The jews reentering israel was symbolic of the start of the end... the actual event didn't cause the beginning of the end. What relation did this event have to the cold war? None. It was just a sign, and nothing more. A sign that coincidentally happened only a couple of years after the nuclear race began. Anyway, the path to the jews re-entering israel started as far back as 1933 when hitler came to power... long before the 1st nuke was developed. Stretching the imagination even more, you can even look at the fact that it was the same regime that invented the nuke (arguably) that began the road to the jews going back to israel. (the nazi regime.)

[Pathfinder UK]

That's the problem with those people like you who adopt religion. You're a closed book. You're so set in your beliefs that your unwilling, even unable, to comprehend the truth being any different. Same can be said for me, but I can change as I get older. You're going to live a life devoted to something and undoubtedly never change to appreciate or accept other peoples views.

Why don't you prove me wrong. Prove there was no jesus, or that he was a liar. All you've used is vague bible quotes that show nothing,

You think I'm trying to prove religion wrong? No, I'm using 'vague' bible quotes as I'm trying to show you how hard it is to get good straight advice from a book which is thousands of years old. I'm not using the bible to disprove Jesus, I'm using it to bring it's own credibility into question. And besides what else do I have to go on? The bible is your holy book, that is not only a guide to how a christian should live his or her life but also a history of your religion. What would you like me to get information from? The odd documentary that you keep defending your argument with? Or perhaps I should just use Royal Marine's technique by claiming that I got it simply from 'a book'.


edit: I looked on the website you provided. Some interesting info especially the link to 100 prophesies. I like the one that referes to the end-time when all the nations will gather to attack Jerusalem. I don't think this on will happen some how. Just think of Jerusalem's strategic importance.

It made you laugh because you're an atheist who considers himself to be more "enlightened" than religious people, and, hence, struggles to accept that it is atheism that is the route of crime. Every religion on earth condones crime. Think about it. Priests who abuse kids are not proper priests and will be punished and maybe even sent to hell if they don't repent. Not believing in god isn't evil; rejecting God is evil. Ok, you're actually implying that i'm putting you on the same level as a terrorist? Bull****. Don't twist the truth to support your argument. You'll be laughing on the other side of your face when you're in hell being bummed by demons 24 hours day.

I don't reject God. I reject your God....
I do not consider myself more 'enlightened' than religous people. I consider myself someone who prefers fact before comitting my life to something.
'Priests who abuse kids are not proper priests'.
Right... Any one who commits any wrongful act in the name of religion isn't really a religous person. The priests aren't real priests, the crusaders wern't real christians, George Bush isn't a real christian. Who is a real christian? My experience with christianity is that most people just select which rules to follow themselves rather than them all. Are they all not 'real' Christians?

You'll be laughing on the other side of your face when you're in hell being bummed by demons 24 hours day.

Lol! :D I happen to like intercourse with demons.

I also note that your getting a little angry at me especially over recent posts. Don't get so heated. If your so devout and your belief in Christianity is so unshakable, simply brush my argument away as the ramblings of a 'blind' atheist. After all if you're right, I'm the one whose going to be in the ****. You better just be damned sure that you're right because if your God doesn't exist you've picked the wrong team to route for.

[js_mac]

That's the problem with those people like you who adopt religion. You're a closed book. You're so set in your beliefs that your unwilling, even unable, to comprehend the truth being any different. Same can be said for me, but I can change as I get older. You're going to live a life devoted to something and undoubtedly never change to appreciate or accept other peoples views.
Ha. No, I am very much the opposite. I have studied other religions in my spare time. I am happy to accept other people's views, it just pities me that people choose not to believe, when I know what will happen to them.... an eternity in hell.
You think I'm trying to prove religion wrong? No, I'm using 'vague' bible quotes as I'm trying to show you how hard it is to get good straight advice from a book which is thousands of years old. I'm not using the bible to disprove Jesus, I'm using it to bring it's own credibility into question. And besides what else do I have to go on? The bible is your holy book, that is not only a guide to how a christian should live his or her life but also a history of your religion. What would you like me to get information from? The odd documentary that you keep defending your argument with? Or perhaps I should just use Royal Marine's technique by claiming that I got it simply from 'a book'.
I think anyone who read this thread, including you, would agree that you're trying to prove me wrong, yeah? It's the way debates work. What I'm trying to prove is that christianity is is real. You proving me wrong would involve proving it is not real.
I'm referring to your bible quotes as "vague" because their resemblance to the point you're trying to prove is vague, not because they, in themselves, are vague.
You can discredit me for getting information from documentaries, but I'm not a liar ("Do not bare false witness" - remember?) At the time I didn't expect to need to know their names and dates of airing so I could use them in a religious debate on army.com.... sorry :confused:
I don't reject God. I reject your God....
I do not consider myself more 'enlightened' than religous people. I consider myself someone who prefers fact before comitting my life to something.
I keep forgetting to ask you this, but do you have some kind of religion? You said that you believe in a God. On topic.... Fair enough, you can have your views, as I said, but christianity revolves around faith. It is vague, in general, and cannot be proven. You obviously don't share this faith.
Right... Any one who commits any wrongful act in the name of religion isn't really a religous person. The priests aren't real priests, the crusaders wern't real christians, George Bush isn't a real christian. Who is a real christian? My experience with christianity is that most people just select which rules to follow themselves rather than them all. Are they all not 'real' Christians?
Ahhh no, you mis-interpreted it again. They're not not religious; they just obviously aren't good christians... that's what I meant. Mind you, no one can be a totally "good christian" (that would involve not sinning at all, throughout your whole life). I just remembered, that's another thing about Jesus that I forgot to mention - the fundamental point of jesus is that he died for our sins, which would involve him never ever committing a sin. To this day, no one has admitted, or found evidence of him ever having ommitting a sin. You try not sinning for one day... it's impossible. You'd have to be a pretty special guy to go your whole life without doing so. (What Jesus did.)
Lol! I happen to like intercourse with demons.
Mmmmm...... alrighty. Whatever floats your boat.
I also note that your getting a little angry at me especially over recent posts. Don't get so heated. If your so devout and your belief in Christianity is so unshakable, simply brush my argument away as the ramblings of a 'blind' atheist. After all if you're right, I'm the one whose going to be in the ****. You better just be damned sure that you're right because if your God doesn't exist you've picked the wrong team to route for.
What? I can honestly say that your posts have not raised my blood pressure one notch. I guess it might appear that way, because I'm quite a blunt person. People on this site have always been accusing me of getting too annoyed. Funnily enough, I was about to the say exactly the same thing to you a couple of posts back, but I didn't for that same reason.

[Pathfinder UK]

I think anyone who read this thread, including you, would agree that you're trying to prove me wrong, yeah? It's the way debates work. What I'm trying to prove is that christianity is is real. You proving me wrong would involve proving it is not real.

Ahh, then appears we are arguing about two different topics. I do not wish to believe Christianity wrong as such an act is impossible. 'Wrong' is simply down to everyone's individual perception of what right and wrong is, so with this in mind I could never hope to prove anything 'wrong'. What I am trying to prove is that in my opinion many christian teachings are out of date and without some attention the Christian faith is just going to stagnate and decline in numbers. I believe that although the bible's 'fables' and stories relayed an important message back in the times of its writing, they often hold little relevence today. I also refer to the lack of guidance with regards to drink, drugs, prostitution, peadophilia etc. That would not have been an issue back when the bible was written though is a problem today. The bible in my opinion needs modernising as time has proved that anything that refuses to change with the times eventually dies out. Just look at Britains empire. I relaise also however that to do this would mean ditching alot of traditional Christian values and so I fear that this much needed modernisation will never occur.

I keep forgetting to ask you this, but do you have some kind of religion? You said that you believe in a God. On topic.... Fair enough, you can have your views, as I said, but christianity revolves around faith. It is vague, in general, and cannot be proven. You obviously don't share this faith.

Your right I do not at this time possess the faith that you have. As stated (a little bluntly) before, I do have a respect for people with enough faith to support something such as religion. I myself don't possess this faith however I do believe that there is some all powerful being responsible for the worlds creation. Coincidence doesn't cut it on this one for me.