
08-23-2007, 02:32 AM
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Lieutenant General
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,186
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NATO steps up monitoring of Russia
By Thomas Harding and David Blair
Last Updated: 1:04am BST 23/08/2007
Nato vessels are closely monitoring the sea trials of Russia's latest submarine, following Moscow's increasingly provocative tests of Western airspace.
In the latest twist to worsening East-West relations, Nato submarines and surface ships, which may include Royal Navy vessels, are trying to gather information on the new Amur class boat being tested in the Baltic.
The greater-than-normal scrutiny is, in part, a response to Russia's decision to resume long-range bomber flights close to Nato airspace which has revived memories of Cold War confrontation between the two blocs.
Twice this summer, Russian Tu-95 nuclear bombers have been spotted heading towards British airspace off Scotland, prompting the RAF to send intercepting aircraft to warn them off.
On another occasion, Russian planes came within striking distance of the US Pacific airbase of Guam.
Yesterday, Russian airforce spokesman Colonel Alexander Drobyshevsky insisted there was no provocative intent.
"Our pilots never violate foreign airspace and their actions have no aggression against other countries," he said.
"The long-range aircraft [off Scotland] were on a scheduled mission over international waters. We have made prior announcements of all flights. There is no sabre-rattling involved."
The Amur class submarine being studied by Nato can test the alliance's ability to defend territorial waters in much the same way that bomber flights can test its ability to defend airspace.
The vessel is an extremely stealthy model, capable of striking surface targets with torpedoes or missiles.
Apart from the threat it poses as part of the Russian navy, Moscow is believed to have won contracts to export it to other states such as Venezuela, which is challenging the United States' influence in Latin America.
Russia also exports weapons to Iran and Sudan, although there is no sign yet that either country plans to buy an Amur class submarine.
The fact that President Vladimir Putin's regime is testing a powerful new addition to the Russian navy - after its fleet went through years of decline - shows a new military build-up is underway.
Russia's neighbour Georgia claimed yesterday that it, too, was being intimidated by Moscow.
Russian jets, the government said, had twice entered its airspace this week. Earlier this month, a Russian warplane had fired a missile at a village on its territory.
But Russia protested its innocence yesterday, accusing Georgia of inventing the charge to stir up tensions. Vitaly Churkin, Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, said that the bomb fragments produced as evidence were of foreign origin.
This meant they could not have been used in a Russian missile, he claimed, adding that Russian pilots were even prohibited from wearing Swiss-made watches.
But Merab Antadze, Georgia's deputy foreign minister, said this kind of disinformation was a typical tactic of the Kremlin.
"It is very well known to all that this old form of shameless Soviet diplomacy continues," he said.
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08-23-2007, 02:57 AM
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Major
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,239
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OSHI-
RED ALERT RLY?
I smell a sitcom.
__________________
We view ourselves on the eve of battle. We are nerved for the contest, and must conquer or perish. It is vain to look for present aid. We must now act or abandon all hope! Rally to the standard, and be no longer the scoff of mercenary tongues! Be men, be free men, that your children may bless their father's name. - Sam Houston
Duty is the most sublime word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less. - Robert E. Lee
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08-24-2007, 01:52 PM
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General of the Armies
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ireland (Ex Irish Army)
Posts: 11,156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas
By Thomas Harding and David Blair
Last Updated: 1:04am BST 23/08/2007
Nato vessels are closely monitoring the sea trials of Russia's latest submarine, following Moscow's increasingly provocative tests of Western airspace.
In the latest twist to worsening East-West relations, Nato submarines and surface ships, which may include Royal Navy vessels, are trying to gather information on the new Amur class boat being tested in the Baltic.
The greater-than-normal scrutiny is, in part, a response to Russia's decision to resume long-range bomber flights close to Nato airspace which has revived memories of Cold War confrontation between the two blocs.
Twice this summer, Russian Tu-95 nuclear bombers have been spotted heading towards British airspace off Scotland, prompting the RAF to send intercepting aircraft to warn them off.
On another occasion, Russian planes came within striking distance of the US Pacific airbase of Guam.
Yesterday, Russian airforce spokesman Colonel Alexander Drobyshevsky insisted there was no provocative intent.
"Our pilots never violate foreign airspace and their actions have no aggression against other countries," he said.
"The long-range aircraft [off Scotland] were on a scheduled mission over international waters. We have made prior announcements of all flights. There is no sabre-rattling involved."
The Amur class submarine being studied by Nato can test the alliance's ability to defend territorial waters in much the same way that bomber flights can test its ability to defend airspace.
The vessel is an extremely stealthy model, capable of striking surface targets with torpedoes or missiles.
Apart from the threat it poses as part of the Russian navy, Moscow is believed to have won contracts to export it to other states such as Venezuela, which is challenging the United States' influence in Latin America.
Russia also exports weapons to Iran and Sudan, although there is no sign yet that either country plans to buy an Amur class submarine.
The fact that President Vladimir Putin's regime is testing a powerful new addition to the Russian navy - after its fleet went through years of decline - shows a new military build-up is underway.
Russia's neighbour Georgia claimed yesterday that it, too, was being intimidated by Moscow.
Russian jets, the government said, had twice entered its airspace this week. Earlier this month, a Russian warplane had fired a missile at a village on its territory.
But Russia protested its innocence yesterday, accusing Georgia of inventing the charge to stir up tensions. Vitaly Churkin, Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, said that the bomb fragments produced as evidence were of foreign origin.
This meant they could not have been used in a Russian missile, he claimed, adding that Russian pilots were even prohibited from wearing Swiss-made watches.
But Merab Antadze, Georgia's deputy foreign minister, said this kind of disinformation was a typical tactic of the Kremlin.
"It is very well known to all that this old form of shameless Soviet diplomacy continues," he said.
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Putin is a school yard bully that does not recognise boudaries.. West is gonna have to be strong with him... or you will see the next madman strutting his stuff on the world stage.... More he gets away with, the bolder he becomes...
__________________
 "Barrel High, Powder Dry!"
"Illic est haud effrego ex Veneratio"
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08-24-2007, 05:34 PM
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![torspo[fin]'s Avatar](image.php?u=1250&dateline=1162066208) |
Major General
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exo1
Putin is a school yard bully that does not recognise boudaries.. West is gonna have to be strong with him... or you will see the next madman strutting his stuff on the world stage.... More he gets away with, the bolder he becomes...
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not exactly. this scenario is a bit different than mere "dictator" thing.
you would have to understand the Russian culture more.
the unfortunate fact is that there are far more dangerous sections in the country
than the one Putin is representing. it has also been more than a tradition
for the Russians that their ruler is "strong". someone like Bush would have
been overthrown there in less than a month, in any means most suitable...
and democracy is far from from the methods.
and now with Exo's "school yard bully" theme... no its not exactly that.
but it infact more like infant psychology. they will run in every direction
beneficial to them untill someone say them no. now who would be
in that position? U.S.? not enough... the Russian know what they have and
they can use it very well. it takes several nations to support the U.S.
opinion when adressing Russia to chance their ways. or another way around.
U.S. supporting the other nations opinions...
and that happens trough diplomacy.
Russia is still going trough the rapid chance from soviet ideals to the western ones..
and as i have seen it.. unfortunately they are going with the "American way" headforward...
to a lake.. with stones... the americans with knowlage of their own history know,
that its been a rocky road..
well Russia has strapped it self in a rocket and is going down that rocky road many many times faster.
it is true that the Russians have in occation been on the wrong side of the fence regarding
for example airspace violations. and that is very "Soviet" tactic. we know first hand.
we endured that all the duration of cold war. (fighters to meet and "show the finger stuff")
So basicly. this is nothing new. the Russians are playing with they book they have.
the development of arms is another thing basicly.
they are just following the atmosphere.. while its true that they could be seeking holes
to their advantage.. to my prespective it seems
that they are just going to go the same path what U.S. has been on for a long time..
that includes the jingo.
__________________
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08-24-2007, 05:36 PM
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Command Sergeant Major
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torspo[fin]
not exactly. this scenario is a bit different than mere "dictator" thing.
you would have to understand the Russian culture more.
the unfortunate fact is that there are far more dangerous sections in the country
than the one Putin is representing. it has also been more than a tradition
for the Russians that their ruler is "strong". someone like Bush would have
been overthrown there in less than a month, in any means most suitable...
and democracy is far from from the methods.
and now with Exo's "school yard bully" theme... no its not exactly that.
but it infact more like infant psychology. they will run in every direction
beneficial to them untill someone say them no. now who would be
in that position? U.S.? not enough... the Russian know what they have and
they can use it very well. it takes several nations to support the U.S.
opinion when adressing Russia to chance their ways. or another way around.
U.S. supporting the other nations opinions...
and that happens trough diplomacy.
Russia is still going trough the rapid chance from soviet ideals to the western ones..
and as i have seen it.. unfortunately they are going with the "American way" headforward...
to a lake.. with stones... the americans with knowlage of their own history know,
that its been a rocky road..
well Russia has strapped it self in a rocket and is going down that rocky road many many times faster.
it is true that the Russians have in occation been on the wrong side of the fence regarding
for example airspace violations. and that is very "Soviet" tactic. we know first hand.
we endured that all the duration of cold war. (fighters to meet and "show the finger stuff")
So basicly. this is nothing new. the Russians are playing with they book they have.
the development of arms is another thing basicly.
they are just following the atmosphere.. while its true that they could be seeking holes
to their advantage.. to my prespective it seems
that they are just going to go the same path what U.S. has been on for a long time..
that includes the jingo.
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What......? Don't get me wrong no disrespect, but that was very, merky..
Last edited by JBMcCain; 08-24-2007 at 06:35 PM..
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08-24-2007, 07:04 PM
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![torspo[fin]'s Avatar](image.php?u=1250&dateline=1162066208) |
Major General
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBMcCain
What......? Don't get me wrong no disrespect, but that was very, merky..
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well. it might be.
nobody denies question(s).
__________________
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08-25-2007, 08:31 AM
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General of the Armies
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ireland (Ex Irish Army)
Posts: 11,156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torspo[fin]
not exactly. this scenario is a bit different than mere "dictator" thing.
you would have to understand the Russian culture more.
the unfortunate fact is that there are far more dangerous sections in the country
than the one Putin is representing. it has also been more than a tradition
for the Russians that their ruler is "strong". someone like Bush would have
been overthrown there in less than a month, in any means most suitable...
and democracy is far from from the methods.
and now with Exo's "school yard bully" theme... no its not exactly that.
but it infact more like infant psychology. they will run in every direction
beneficial to them untill someone say them no. now who would be
in that position? U.S.? not enough... the Russian know what they have and
they can use it very well. it takes several nations to support the U.S.
opinion when adressing Russia to chance their ways. or another way around.
U.S. supporting the other nations opinions...
and that happens trough diplomacy.
Russia is still going trough the rapid chance from soviet ideals to the western ones..
and as i have seen it.. unfortunately they are going with the "American way" headforward...
to a lake.. with stones... the americans with knowlage of their own history know,
that its been a rocky road..
well Russia has strapped it self in a rocket and is going down that rocky road many many times faster.
it is true that the Russians have in occation been on the wrong side of the fence regarding
for example airspace violations. and that is very "Soviet" tactic. we know first hand.
we endured that all the duration of cold war. (fighters to meet and "show the finger stuff")
So basicly. this is nothing new. the Russians are playing with they book they have.
the development of arms is another thing basicly.
they are just following the atmosphere.. while its true that they could be seeking holes
to their advantage.. to my prespective it seems
that they are just going to go the same path what U.S. has been on for a long time..
that includes the jingo.
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No offense Torps, but your posts do confuse me at times... you are saying they are not school yard bully mentality, they just do things their way until somebody says no??... Are we not saying the same thing just in different ways??.... 
__________________
 "Barrel High, Powder Dry!"
"Illic est haud effrego ex Veneratio"
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08-25-2007, 11:38 AM
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Major General
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBMcCain
What......? Don't get me wrong no disrespect, but that was very, merky..
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I understood it! Its difficult to see it from a Russian point of view, but you should at least try and acknowledge what that people have been through since Communism collapsed. They want to be taken seriously again. All these little actions. Such as the planes flying closer to our airspace and the gas pressure being reduced to the Ukraine, the announcement of military spending are deliberate. They're basically saying "we're still on the block"
__________________
"If you're going through hell, keep going". Winston Churchill
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08-25-2007, 12:31 PM
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Command Sergeant Major
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike
I understood it! Its difficult to see it from a Russian point of view, but you should at least try and acknowledge what that people have been through since Communism collapsed. They want to be taken seriously again. All these little actions. Such as the planes flying closer to our airspace and the gas pressure being reduced to the Ukraine, the announcement of military spending are deliberate. They're basically saying "we're still on the block"
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I got the drift of what he was trying to say.At least I thought I did......
I understand what your trying to say as well. They want, and should be taken seriously.
But their are more constructive ways to do so.
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08-25-2007, 12:45 PM
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Lieutenant General
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBMcCain
I got the drift of what he was trying to say.At least I thought I did......
I understand what your trying to say as well. They want, and should be taken seriously.
But their are more constructive ways to do so.
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I think Putins actions are two fold. He's also giving the Russian people their pride back. Their military was in dire straits for quite a while, and mirrored the fabric of Russian society.
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